284: The C.S. Lewis Quote That Will Change How You View Love

Most movies, songs, and modern media teach us that love is an intense, passive feeling, and that when the feeling fades, the relationship is over. In this episode of The Fire You Carry, Nole and Kevin dive deep into what true love actually requires.

Anchored by a classic reflection from C.S. Lewis, they break down the critical difference between "being in love" and choosing to love through commitment, daily habits, and shared faith. They share real-world lessons from over 40 years of combined marriage, discuss the importance of proactive marital counseling, and explore how small daily sacrifices build a foundation strong enough to withstand life's biggest storms.

Big thank you to My Epic and Facedown Records for the use of their song "Hail" in our podcast!
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"The Weight" - Thrice

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Transcript

Nole (00:01.148)
for your timing when you start talking?

Kevin (00:03.458)
No, when we say welcome to the fire and then the end part. Yeah. Just give me like a production

Nole (00:06.191)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nole (00:11.175)
Okay.

Nole (00:26.0)
Right here.

Kevin (00:27.49)
Welcome back to the Fire You Carry Podcast. Today we're talking about love. L-O-V-E. Noel, you had r sent me a quote by the great C. S. Lewis and it was pretty interesting. I think we're gonna talk about it. the double click.

Nole (00:32.901)
Ooh.

Nole (00:43.407)
I have it right here.

C.S. Lewis, as mentioned. The idea that being in love is the only reason for remaining married really leaves no room for marriage as a contract or a promise at all. A promise must be about things that I can do, about actions. No one can promise to go on feeling in a certain way. He might as well promise never to have a headache or always to feel hungry.

Being in love is a good thing, but it is not the best thing. You cannot make it the basis of a whole life. It is a noble feeling, but it is still a feeling. Now, no feeling can be relied on to last in its full intensity, or even to last at all. Knowledge can last, principles can last, habits can last, but feelings come and go. Ceasing to be

In love need not mean ceasing to love. Love in this second sense, love is distinct from being in love, is not merely a feeling, it is a deep unity, maintained by the will and deliberately strengthened by habit, reinforced by, in Christian marriages, the grace which both partners ask and receive from God. Being in love first moved them to promise fidelity, this quieter love enables them to keep the promise.

It is on this love that the engine of marriage is run. Being in love was the explosion that started it.

Kevin (02:23.09)
Nole (02:23.793)
Kinda kinda heavy, kinda deep, but not too deep. I can still follow it.

Kevin (02:27.896)
So what I get out of that is that it's like literally the opposite of what every movie has ever come out, romance movie. You know what I mean? Because it's like there's and I I do think that we set up I would say women and we set up men for failure and women for breaking their expectations. That that that classic story of the princess rescued by the prince and they fall madly in love or and f and they lived happily ever after.

Nole (02:37.051)
Right? Right.

Kevin (02:57.474)
You know what I mean? It's it's the it's the tail old tale. It's the story of all stories. It's in every movie that that then then when the ounce of of you know pressure or chaos or stress comes into their marriage, then divorce is the first option.

Nole (03:12.879)
I wrote a list of some movies, a short list, actually. I wrote part of the list and then I consulted AI, full disclosure. I asked AI for more. So some of these actually haven't seen. But

In addition to that storyline is the storyline of guy is with a girl or girl is with a guy and it's the wrong person. They're with the wrong person. Mr. Wright comes along, and then there's this drama and but and then they end up together, which means that they left the original person. Sleepless in Seattle, You've Got Mail, While You Were Sleeping, The Wedding Singer, Sweet Home Alabama, The Holiday, Leap Year. The list goes on and on and on. This

Kevin (03:34.882)
They're with the wrong guy. He's like, Yes.

Kevin (03:53.912)
These are like the top ten movies of all women.

Nole (03:56.954)
Some of these movies are ones that I regularly, like annually, will sit down and watch with my wife. Like there's a certain type of year that we sit down and we watch Sleepless in Seattle together. It's it's one of our movies. And it's a great movie, but that part of the storyline has always bothered me for the reasons that we're gonna continue to dig into and get into. But you're right. That messaging is it's pervasive. And it's not just in

movies, it's in music, it's in news stories, it's kind of everywhere. And it all kind of points back to that principle that C.S. Lewis was talking about there, where we have been led to believe by culture, society, the world, that love is that initial emotional, chemical experience when you first meet the the person, right?

Which we all remember if we're married or if we've ever been in love. Like it's super exciting, it's intense, it's debilitating, right? You can't really live the rest of your life. You know, you're you're skipping out on your friends, you're missing work, all that kind good stuff. There's a lot going on. But that doesn't last. And the message from these movies and television shows and everything is that once that's gone, now it's you you must realize now you're wrong you're with the wrong person. It's time to find somebody else. But what is the follow-on to that, right?

What is the what kind of life does that lead you to if you believe and act on

Kevin (05:26.466)
Dude. I love this because recently I had to you know, if you ever go audit your finances and whatnot, I had to go look in and I'm like, what are all these charges, these random things on Roku or whatever? And it was for like the Hallmark channel, Lifetime Movie Network. It was either my wife or kids just said either they want to watch one movie, but it ends up being a subscription for $19 a month or something. But so I was looking at the Hallmark and that my wife and girls love.

Nole (05:49.51)
Yes.

Kevin (05:54.893)
And it's literally exactly every every movie plot is the same. It's a small town girl that moves to the big city, finds some like finance guy who's kind of a jerk, but he's wealthy, and then she moves back home for some you know, sir happens to the and then meets the, you know, the true love of her life, which is the eighth grade Yeah, the blacksmith or the dog owner, or you know what I mean, or whatever it is. And it's it's the same thing. And I'm like

Nole (06:12.05)
The lowly blacksmith, yeah.

Nole (06:18.95)
His job is dog owner.

Kevin (06:21.014)
I had to sit these ladies down and said, this is not worth every single movie. This is the script. This is not worth $19 a month. I'm sorry you're canceled. But but the but that thing is right because how long have you been married for?

Nole (06:27.208)
But it's so romantic.

Nole (06:36.968)
twenty three years.

Kevin (06:38.254)
Twenty three years. We're going we're coming up on twenty. I think that we have some experience in this with forty-three years of marriage combined that we can we can speak on that. That not every day is roses and petals and like we're we are madly falling in love to each other and as soon as I see her the clothes fall off. It's just not that. I think my wife is irritated at me more often than she's in love. But I do remember like

I do remember distinctively after a couple of the first storms that hit in our lives, watching my wife roll up her sleeves and do something that was out of the normal and was like, You're my ride or die. We're got we got this. Let's do this. Like that's when I feel like our true relationship and the real love started was when the you know what hit the fan. You know what I mean?

Nole (07:35.046)
Yeah. Yeah. Because then it becomes it becomes real on that that other level, the level of promise and commitment. The things that can actually be controlled, like what C.S. Lewis was talking about, versus, you know, we as humans can't invent that emotional, chemical, biological response that we call being in love. We we can't create that arbitrarily with whoever we want. It's not something that we can control. But the pro being promised to someone, being committed to them, rolling up your sleeves when, you know

Kevin (07:54.733)
No.

Nole (08:04.39)
Like you're saying, the shit hits the fan and it becoming the ride or die. Those are choices. And we know intrinsically that that's so much more real and that that can be the thing that lasts, especially in the Christian context, right? That commitment before God and man that we make when we get married, like that being the actual sustaining force underneath. But just real quick, I wanted to tie this in to something a little bit more modern lyrics to a song.

That I love. But the idea so f at the level that we're at right now is

It's this kind of principle, this picture that love is a passive thing that just happens to us, right? It it just happens and it's magical. And what happens to that passive magical moment is that it ebbs, it drops off. And so then that must mean we've got to move on, or this relationship was never meant to be. And on that theme, Thrice's song that I'm referencing is called The Wait. I think it's off the beggars album. It doesn't matter. I'll I'll link it in the show notes. But

I'm not going to read the entire song. You should just go listen to it and look at the lyrics. They're really good. But there's a line in there where Dustin says, There's many who tell you they'll give you their love, but when they say give, they mean take. And I I think that's a really good perspective because culturally, when we say love, what we're really talking about is I like the way you make me feel. It isn't what it isn't I'm concerned with what I'm going to.

Kevin (09:35.48)
Mm.

Nole (09:39.804)
to give you or provide for you, it's I appreciate how you make me feel. Which is the opposite of what you just described with your wife rolling up her sleeves and getting down to business when things are hard. Right. That's not about how she feels. That's about how she wants to take care of you and be a part of, you know, the team.

Kevin (09:58.305)
Right. And I think our culture has destroyed that, right? So we have you know, like I have teenagers, you have teenagers. Not often them are they making me feel like, the love of my lives. No, it's like it's it's there's it's it's abrasive. There's a lot going on there, right? And yet I I love them more than anybody that I know in my house. It's an unconditional love and it's a commitment to say I'm your father. But especially with the wife

I feel like hey, we made a commitment between you, me and God that till death do us part and not like literally every day is not roses and that we I'm no matter what, we're gonna we're gonna figure this out. And sometimes that love is not a feeling, but even when I don't want when she's driving me nuts, I'm still gonna make her a cup of coffee and and go from there.

Nole (10:52.71)
Yeah, and move on and and figure it out. Like you're gonna figure it out. You're not just gonna quit because things get tough. I I can't credit my and this isn't a new concept. Most of you are not hearing this for the first time, but I think it's a really good reminder for a couple of reasons. And the reason that we're revisiting this right now is because we are surrounded by broken families. They're just everywhere. We know we all know

A lot of people in our lives who are divorced or come from divorced homes. And it's right. My wife, my wife is one of them. we just and in the fire service, it is the norm, right? It's more common than not. This isn't the only reason that that exists, but it's a big part of it. I can't credit C. S. Lewis for being the one that taught me this initially. I my dad taught me this. He didn't know he was teaching me this at the time. I'll tell a funny little story.

Kevin (11:28.225)
I'm one of yeah.

Nole (11:52.774)
My dad, when I was growing up at Hume Lake, so I when I was probably around twelve or thirteen, my dad started this thing where when the summers would go on, all this summer staff would come up, so all the young college kids would come up to work the summer camp, Hume Lake Christian camps. And he started this weekly kind of Bible study meeting with whatever guys wanted to come over and they would go sit out on our deck and have have a fire and my mom would make cookies and they would talk.

And the thing that they would talk about the most was relationships and getting married and how to do that. Because all these young college guys, they want to get married and they want to, you know. And so they would they would sit down and listen to my dad and get advice. And that was something that he was known for doing talks about and that was kind of like his his realm of expertise in in a su in some way. So he'd be sitting out there with these college guys. I'm twelve or thirteen, and I'm inside the house.

But unbeknownst to my dad, or maybe he knew, I don't know. I'm up in the window that overlooks the deck when the window opened, and I'm just sitting there, you know, out of sight, but I'm listening. So I'm hearing all this stuff and hearing all these talks and I'm picking up all these principles. And the the thing that did stick with me that I remember thinking about later on as an adult when I started to have a relationship with my wife and then marry her and then go through the storms was this principle distilled basically down to

Kevin (12:51.959)
He knew.

Nole (13:19.344)
Which now I I can't help but connect to the the Thrice lyrics, which I have to find really quick. Well, I don't have to find. The the line is Love is a loyalty sworn, not a burning for a moment. Which just distills down everything that we're talking about, right? Right, which Dustin Kinser is really good at doing that lyrically, which is why Love Thrice for a long time.

Kevin (13:35.071)
Mm.

That's it right there in one sentence.

Kevin (13:46.287)
Do you what's wild is to think about generationally, really quick? Because I I love that your dad I think your dad is one of the most intentional persons that I've met. And so he knew you were in the window listening and he's planting seeds to a 12-year-old boy, even though he's talking to 23 year olds. I I know your dad. So amazing, right? but to think about like I definitely came from a broken home. I don't know what a healthy marriage looked like at all. I did not have the example. I think Nolan and I could have probably hadn't.

Nole (13:57.736)
Definitely. Yeah.

Nole (14:03.794)
You're right.

Kevin (14:15.222)
opposite ends of what that was. But for I'm a Gen Xer and I and I think I think the heavens that I didn't have to get into the millennial movement of like dating apps where that was a gigantic thing. J dating apps have gotten so wild now into Gen Z and Gen Alpha, there's a do you know that there's a movement called like the Meet Cute movement where they're trying to get off of these apps and off of these things and try to create actual like hallmark

Nole (14:41.586)
Really?

Kevin (14:44.344)
type things where they bumpy new each other at the Starbucks and both are their coffee things. And there's literally YouTube channels where they manufacture a meat cute where they'll have a gal on the bench and they pr pr they have two actors pretend to like their dogs get tied up in each other's leashes and they video these meat cute such scenarios. My my daughters have showed me these things. And it it's absurd, but it there is a movement now of like people getting away from the bars, which are where I would meet people and then away from the dating apps, which is just

promiscuity and then going to like actual like meet in person live things. And I think that is wild. It goes back though to the key though that they're wanting to have that feeling, that that that initial feeling. And you and I know marriage is not a feeling, right? It's it's a commitment. And you did say something about habits and discipline in there that maybe we can kind of go in there because I feel like every day

Nole (15:15.473)
Right.

Kevin (15:42.795)
Like I need to work on my habits. I am selfish and self-centered by nature. And so habitually when I wake up, I've taught I've been taught by older and wiser men who mentor me that say, when I leave at four in the morning, I should kiss my wife on the forehead and pray over her. And then I put her favorite cup of coffee with the Keurig thing in there so that when she wakes up, she just presses a button and then I go on to my day. And it's the tiniest little things, but the first thing she does is say thank you.

It's not my nature. I really want to go take a piss and then get out the door as soon as possible, put on thrice or something angry and go fight traffic. But but I that's a habit that I am for I am forming. I'm not doing it every day. I'm not some perfect dude. But but that it's those habits and those little things that just show a little bit of self-sacrifice or you're thinking of somebody else.

Nole (16:37.478)
Yeah, and those are the

I mean that's a perfect that's a perfect segue or or example of what we're talking about because so in my in my example I get up when I go to work and I make the coffee and I will write a short note, a few sentences, and leave it on the coffee cup. That's something that has become a habit for us. That short note, in my opinion, is

far less important on the days or during the weeks where things are good and everything's great and we're just kind of getting along and life is fine. It's so much more important on those days when we had an argument the day before and I'm going to work and I'm feeling frustrated and I know that she's frustrated with me, right? Not just with the world. Like things aren't great, which is a reality, right? It I'm not you have to speak honestly about this stuff. I'm not saying anything negative

about my wife or about my marriage. I'm just saying the reality is that there are a great many days when things are tough. And anyone listening to this, obviously you resonate with that. But taking the steps to make the coffee, to kiss your wife before you leave, to pray over her, to do those things on the days when it's hard and you don't want to do it, that's the commitment. And we say it in vows. Most people say it, you know, in in sickness and in health, for better or for worse. Most people don't really think about what that means when they're saying it.

It means that when you're having a bad day and you're fighting, that you're going to continue to take action and continue to choose to love that person and choose what's best for them over what's best for you. And all the way up into this person that you've committed to being married to is dying in a hospital of Alzheimer's, and you're going to be by their side and and loving them through that even though they don't even know who you are anymore. Like worst case scenario, all the way down to the most mild annoyance. And

Kevin (18:08.782)
Mm.

Kevin (18:21.837)
Right.

Nole (18:31.334)
That's what it really looks like on a you know, on one level is that choosing to take those actions, choosing to be in in love with that person no matter what. There's a line in this song about that too.

Kevin (18:44.972)
That's it.

Kevin (18:49.046)
I remember I've talked to about him a lot as my one of my life mentors is Big Joe Flahaven. He's ninety now. But I remember him twenty years ago when I was courting Harmony and we were going down the road and it seemed like all the things were adding up to marriage, but you you don't know, is this the one? You know, and because of culture and movies, I'm like I didn't feel like I was struck by lightning and we were soulmates, you know what I mean? But I knew that I'd

I definitely felt something that I haven't felt before. And I felt like she was a making me a better person. And I felt I was definitely attracted to her. And I was but I asked him, I'm like, how do I know if if I you know? And Big Joe Vlahaven looked me straight in the eye and he said, You gotta make the best decision, knowing that the moment of clarity will not come. And I was like, What the hell does that mean? You know what I mean? Like

Nole (19:42.172)
Yeah, amen.

Nole (19:46.172)
Yeah, that's not the answer you want, yeah. It's a good answer though.

Kevin (19:47.723)
I want a yes or no, bro, you know. But twenty years later he made sense. Like I made the best decision, knowing I had no idea whether it was right or wrong. And now now into it, you know, twenty years, my my wife will tell you I know nothing about marriage that I'm terrible husband, right? But I know like now, like she is for me and I am for her. We were chosen for each other by something greater than us, right? And that it's my job.

To fulfill that every day, over and over again, even when I don't

Nole (20:22.298)
Amen. I love that from Big Joe. That's really good. It really good. And

when you're in that moment trying to figure that out like that's not hopeful especially as a Christian I think because you want God just to come down from the clouds and say Kevin Kevin my boy she's the one you have clearance go for it marry her now but I don't know anyone who that's happened to I'm not saying it's impossible because the the good Lord does whatever he wants but I wouldn't count on it I wouldn't count on it

Kevin (20:43.714)
Mary Heard Thank you, God. Nobody.

Kevin (20:59.202)
Well, can I get into like a little bit of a specifics? So we you got some awesome notes, but it just made me think back at this. so when I was I was not a Christian, I had a belief of something greater than myself at when I was in this time. Harmony and her family were Christians and there was something there tangible. They had the family unit, the patriarchal grandmother who went to church and volunteered every single day at the church.

Nole (21:02.876)
Yeah, you can do whatever you want.

Nole (21:14.46)
Mm, yeah.

Nole (21:19.506)
Mm-hmm.

Nole (21:26.812)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (21:27.594)
And there was a lot there was something there that I wanted and I didn't know what it was. So her grandmother suggested before you kids get married and we were already living in sin together, she's like, I think you should go to get some Christian counseling before you do this. It was probably the most beneficial thing that's ever happened because there was some real clarity and he went biblically in the Bible on saying what our roles and responsibilities are, and that I was to love her like Christ loved the church.

Nole (21:45.127)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (21:57.537)
And how did Christ love the church? He died for it. And that, you know, a lot of women struggle with this, but it says, You're my special helper. You know, like, and that I'm to lead. And you, you know what I mean? And but what that looks like specifically is that we went down checklists and said, okay, who's going to pay the bills? And Harmony's like, Well, he's in finance. That's his job. And he's like, All right, cool. Who's going to do this? And we went line by line. And he said, Hey, what

Nole (22:16.232)
Mm.

Kevin (22:26.382)
What religion are you gonna follow? And then we had to answer these questions, right? And I knew I would I had some glaring deficiencies. Like I didn't know that at the time. And so I was like, well, I gotta figure that out. And so we started church hopping. We started seeking. And eventually I found basically non-denominational Christianity was my thing. And I eventually got

baptized in the church and I gave my life to Christ. And that was all because of Harmony's influence and her her family's influence. But it was also this Christian pastor who took the time to do marital counseling for free for us. We did like ten sessions. I thought it was so beneficial and one of the things that he recommended is that too often people go to counseling when everything has hit the fan, the divorce papers are there and they're ready to leave. And he said, No, that's not how you do this.

Nole (23:00.581)
wow. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (23:16.886)
You don't wait till the day of the marathon to start training for a run. You have to put in the training proactively ahead of time. And so if there's anything that we have done decently well, is that we've c consistently talked to somebody over time when in good times and bad. And Max K's is a a a phenomenal resource that I've used and I have others that we've used over the years where we just go in and life is nuts. I'm like today is like.

Nole (23:21.336)
All right.

Kevin (23:44.899)
gymnastics and then it's soccer practice and then it's youth group, who's cooking dinner. And so these these are forced times that we have to sit down. And a lot of times it's just the little things that we can actually communicate with a a safe third party who can go into some of these little arguments. And we always come out better for it. And so I I encourage you like the Christian counseling was probably the best thing that ever happened to us to set the foundation, set roles and responsibility. But over 20 years we've gone to

marriage counseling proactively, not because times are bad, but because we want to work on communication. We want to work on all the things that we've committed to. And I'd highly suggest that to any one of you that are thinking of marriage or in it right now or at that seven year itch or whatever that nonsense is.

Nole (24:32.36)
Dude, I'm the flip side of that coin. I mean, I was raised, you know, you all know. I was raised in a Christian camp. My dad's a pastor, surrounded by this stuff forever. My wife and I met when we were kids, and I ran off to the military. We never did the biblical marriage counseling before we got married. All of my friends did, all my sisters did, everyone I know. I'm currently talking to my daughter about this because.

Her and her boyfriend are talking about getting married. And it's a thing. It's a real thing. And it's hugely important because my story is an example of this. Not doing that up front did mean that later on down the road, deep into the marriage, that was part of what we had to do to save the marriage. And it doesn't we don't need to go into all the reasons. If you listen to the podcast long enough, you know, you know parts of that story, but but I mean that's a real thing. And

If you don't start off with a good strong foundation, you're gonna have to figure it out later. And you're gonna have to figure it out in the heat of battle, right? Life, life's gonna hit you. And now you're gonna have to figure out, and and the basic, most simple things, like I love what your guy highlighted, like who's gonna pay the bills? Where are you gonna go to church? Like those are all the things that in the moment of being in love, nobody thinks about. But guess what? The rubber's gonna start having to meet the road. And those are the questions, and it's so good to have them done up front. I would say two things on that.

One, be very careful where you go to get that advice. I would strongly recommend some sort of biblical counselor if you're gonna go to a professional. A pastor is a great place to start. Todd Bradstreet. Yeah. Yeah. Don't go to some random person you found on the internet who looks like they have woo-woo stuff, you know, dream catchers hanging in their office and whatever. Be be cautious. Because there's a lot of weird ideas out there in the secular world around marriage and relationships between men and women. But be careful. Go to somebody you can trust.

Kevin (26:08.654)
Todd Bradstreet is one. Max Case is one. We have those resources for you if you need them.

Kevin (26:21.304)
Crystals.

Nole (26:31.544)
If you're in this position, you're young, you don't have a lot of money, look around you. There are couples in your life, I can almost guarantee it, who have successful marriages who are who are far beyond. Go find those people that you respect and and know somewhat in your church or wherever and go, hey, could we maybe have you guys over for dinner and just have a conversation about what it looks like to be married and and the lessons you've learned along the way? There are people around you with a wealth of experience and knowledge that

would love and could share it with you and you might be lucky enough to find somebody like Kevin who would just do it for free on a more professional level. But that's an untapped resource that I I mean, there's all kinds of avenues of life where we all should be exercising the availability of knowledge like that, people with experience that are around us. But this is a key area where it's definitely something you can pull from if you're if you find yourself in this position right now. And if you're not in this position right now and you're like me and you find yourself

Kevin (27:10.531)
Yes.

Kevin (27:25.816)
Yeah.

Nole (27:31.132)
What's the math? Ten years into the marriage and tragedy struck, you've made all the wrong decisions, you've broken the marriage, everything's falling apart, and now you gotta go fix it. Like well then of course, yes, you go fix it right now. You start now, you start today with what you have and you don't worry about what happened in the past. But if you're not there now, then you know, prepare. Get ready. I think that's really great.

Kevin (27:51.459)
Yeah.

There's some commonalities that I see. I do, you know, being a junior elder of the fire service.

There are some twenty year old guys that are talking about these things. I don't know, you know, and so, you know, there there was a position. There's some some veterans at my station and we have some young guys that are working overtime and young guys in general. And they're in these early life stages of the phase in their early twenties. And like like a guy that's been there and done that, I can see I'm like, this isn't gonna work. But I do think that they have some unique challenges. So there's been some three guys recently that I've been talking to,

Nole (28:04.69)
Junior elder.

Kevin (28:30.412)
And I don't know if they want my advice, but we give it to them anyways. but that, you know, home prices are absurd, especially if you're trying to live in Southern California, right? And what they have is a a it's very common is a two working people family. And they seem to be doing really well when, you know, the wife's a nurse, the husband's a fireman, and they're stacking chips because they have dual income no kids. They call dinks, you know.

Nole (28:37.456)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nole (28:56.538)
Yeah.

Kevin (28:57.196)
And them dinks are going all over the world. They're traveling to Saint Tropez and doing all this stuff. But then when the rubber mints the road, they're buying a house for a million dollars in Southern California, which is a starter home, nine hundred square foot place and wherever it may be. And then inevitably the next step is children. And when the children come in, all of a sudden the wife says, This is insane. I need to stay home. And what happens is the pressure mounts for the guy because he says, I need five overtimes a month, six just to

Nole (29:00.998)
Yeah, posting on the gram.

Nole (29:17.232)
I need to stay home. Yep.

Kevin (29:26.786)
basically go to sushi from time to time. And the pressure of that is insane. And so I really think that part of your counseling is what we gift now to young couples who are getting married in our sphere is Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. And so we gift that as their wedding gift to them is is this course that you can take online or many churches have it. And that to me is probably the best marital counseling I've ever been to.

Nole (29:29.298)
Right.

Nole (29:40.368)
Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin (29:56.995)
Like the best marital counseling I've ever been to because finances seem to be one of the largest things that people argue about. but it gives you guys goals and direction and it literally a s one step one through seven on what to do, and it's biblically based. That changed the game for us. But I think that's a big deal because the exact same thing happened to my wife. So said, Hey, hey, we I think we could do this. And then we started having kids and she said, I really want to be a homemaker.

I said, God, what do I do? You know? And I started, I became a paramedic, try get a promotion, try to do that. And we're still in that. And so I'm like, I that the the financial burden, it feels sometimes like pressure, like, hey, it's everything's on my shoulder. And it's up to me to provide and protect these these women, which I will do. but sometimes it can be taxing. And if you weren't prepared for that, if you didn't have a plan for that, it would be immediately like, well, we're out. This isn't gonna work.

Nole (30:48.806)
Hm. Yeah.

Kevin (30:54.392)
We're gonna get divorced and sell the house and now or what we do see is that is one piece of the puzzle of PTSD. It's one thing that broke the the the camel's back, you know what I mean? And so I really think like having these conversations, if you're in it right now, start over. Start having these conversations, go to counseling, go to Dave Ramsey and start having these conversations because it alleviated so much in our because we have a plan and we have a system in place.

Nole (31:01.501)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (31:23.862)
And we're not we don't argue about that. And how every now and then I find the Hallmark nineteen dollar thing and I'm like, what the hell is this? But that's standard. And she every now and then goes, Why do you need another surfboard? You have four. And you know what I mean? But that's standard, right? but in those things, there's tools that are given to you in the counseling that we've gone to that gives you an understanding of why I react a certain way, because I came from a broken home. Why she reacts a certain way, because I came from she came from a different home.

Nole (31:29.808)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nole (31:35.72)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Nole (31:50.056)
Hm.

Nole (31:53.904)
Right.

Kevin (31:54.153)
And when you're when you finally get an understanding of why your reaction is away, I think it gives them some grace to you. Like I'm giving grace to her. I understand why she would do this. I understand why and we've done this so many times, like it that it's really neat to see other couples that we've been in marriage groups in our church and seeing these things of what working well for some people. And Noel said it. I think that's been

even more powerful than even the counseling is talking to other couples and knowing that not everybody is skipping down the rainbow road of bliss and love is that the more commonly it's been a fight for fifty years or it's been a fight for forty years.

Nole (32:31.197)
Yeah.

Nole (32:37.082)
Right. Right. Yeah. And not a fight because you're fighting because you hate the other person, right? That's not I mean, there are times. There are definitely times. But mostly it's just life hitting and there's the storms. Really quick, dude, back to the lyrics of the song. Which again, I would encourage you go into the the links in the show notes or just go search the wait by Thrice. Listen to this song. Read the lyrics. It's so good. This song actually got me through

Kevin (32:54.37)
Yeah.

Nole (33:06.95)
Some really difficult times, this one and and a few others. But this one really gave me a lot of commitment to do something that I believed in, but wasn't really prepared at the time to execute on by myself. It kind of gave me support. But the last lines are storms will surely come, but true love is a choice you must make. And you are the one that I have set my heart to choose. As long as I live, I swear I'll see this through.

It's really hard for me to read that in like a voice. I want to sing it, but super solid. And the real the real point.

Kevin (33:39.534)
Yeah, yeah.

Awesome.

Nole (33:46.918)
There is just that true security in a marriage doesn't come from this idea that you could make a promise to always be excited, right? About the other person, always be have that in love feeling. It comes from really the the vow, the commitment, the promise in front of God that I'm not going anywhere, regardless of what storms hit, regardless of what happens.

I'll be here and you know, quote unquote, there's no end in sight. But I think that's the thing that to me can be the biggest kind of paradigm shift for some of you who are out there who are struggling and and trying to figure out and navigate this and and maybe you're in a tough spot. Just take a pause, listen to this song, go read some of C.S. Lewis on this, talk to your pastor, just meditate on it and really ask yourself.

What do I believe about this marriage? Cause obviously right now most of this we're talking about a relationship and marriage, right? There's a lot of things here for people that are stepping into that role. But really, if you're in it, really take a stop and take a take a moment, think about it. Am I am I here because this woman used to make me feel a certain way? And is that what I'm chasing and looking for and needing her to do now again, like it was five, ten, twenty years ago? Or am I here because I've made a commitment and because I believe in this thing.

Kevin (34:55.704)
Yeah, yeah.

Nole (35:19.036)
And because I care about this woman and this relationship and this family that we build on a deeper level. And make a decision based on that. And then start taking an action, taking action. Some of this stuff that that Kevin has laid out, these ideas, these are great. These are all great starting points. There's obviously so much more to this topic than we can delve into in the short period of this podcast. But but think about it. Like, where are you? Why are you there? And what do you believe about it?

Kevin (35:45.039)
That's amazing though. I I'm gonna give him one tangible thing that it's a kind of a funny story that I that we learned in one of these marriage counseling things. but he after this session, I said, I'm I'm very quick to try to squash the beef. I want peace in my home, right? Harmony will let it my wife will let that thing simmer forever, you know. And so he he this one counselor talked about the turtle in the hailstorm. So

Nole (36:02.556)
Yeah. Same.

Kevin (36:14.966)
He said, Imagine there's this little turtle that's walking along, it's having its day, the sun is shining, his head is out, getting some of that reptilian sun. And this hailstorm is kind of cruising around. He's like, that's cute little turtle. I'm gonna try to get its attention. And so he throws a few raindrops down. And the turtle's like, I don't know what that was. And then just keeps cruising along, you know. And the hailstorm, of course, is like, Hey, turtle, pay attention to me.

I'm gonna squash some beef. So he starts raining. And then the turtle starts poking its head in, and it's like, I'm not gonna come out until the rain comes. And then it starts walking along again, the sun is shining, and then the hailstorm is like, You're going to listen to me now. And I start hailing on this turtle shell. And inevitably that turtle shell does that turtle does not come out of its shell until it stops hailing. And that is an analogy for how we argue. And

I am the hailstorm. I'm like, we are going to settle this now. Let's figure it out. Shut everything up. And she's like, the turtle, and she will retreat and we'll let that simmer for decades if allowed to. But what happens is that we've learned that, okay, I am a hailstorm. I have to be patient and say, I would love to talk about this. And as the turtle, she said, cool, give me 30 minutes, or we will talk about this in one hour.

And the real the real you know progress is the hill start going, my initial reaction is like, an hour? How could we possibly wait an hour to figure this out? And that and it's hard for the turtle to say that, you know. So knowing myself, knowing that like, hey, I want to get this done so I can move on with my day, and knowing that she is different than that is helpful and that we recognize these things and we worked on exercises to do that.

Nole (37:49.927)
Yeah.

Nole (38:03.472)
Mm.

Kevin (38:07.34)
Because it inevitably happens every time. I want to hail and figure this thing out. And she's like, I'm not talking to you right now.

Nole (38:16.434)
That sounds like

You've been in my house spying on me. That exact same scenario plays out in our relationship for sure. Of course, yeah.

Kevin (38:26.264)
But those roles can reverse. And sometimes I could be the turtle because I'm tired from work or exhausted. I'm like, I don't want to do this at all. And I'll turtle. But it's it's nice to know. So sometimes we we'll be into it in the middle of the heat of battle and somebody will say turtle in the hailstorm. And we'll just kind of chuckle and then we'll try to say, all right, how about tomorrow? And there's these old adages, never go to bed angry. That hasn't always been true in my house. Sometimes we go to bed angry. You know what I mean? Because the turtle needs time.

Nole (38:57.51)
Yeah, I actually think that's a really at least in my context from my experience, it's actually a really bad when applied to marriage in that sense, because I find that the later at night it gets, the more unreasonable the argument becomes, mostly because of me, right? I get really grumpy and unreasonable when it's late at night. So if we're continuing there's a definitive point where sometimes I'll realize and sometimes not, where it's like we can't

We we have to figure this out later. Like I'm too physically and emotionally tired right now to actually make any real progress. We can continue to argue and all that's gonna do is get worse and worse and worse as the hour gets later and later. So I'm I obviously don't think it's a good idea to go to bed angry, but it's a better idea, in my opinion, than having a knockdown drag out fight at, you know, one PM in the morning.

Kevin (39:40.462)
There's

Kevin (39:52.303)
Correct. There's a couple no, yes, of course we do. Yeah. There's a there's a very famous prayer that probably everybody has heard that I change quite often. well I changed one lyric to it. It's the Serenity Prayer. If everyone's ever heard it, it says, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Nole (39:54.3)
Not that that's ever happened, but we have the best marriage. It's so great.

Kevin (40:18.87)
I just add in, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, my wife, the courage that changes the can't things I can me, and the wisdom to know the difference. Because reality is, is that we know each other's flaws like nobody else. And you might have some perception of who I am as a podcaster, as a fireman, as a dad, or whatever, but my wife knows the true secrets, right? And she can see the flaws. But I usually try to find out those flaws in her as well.

And the real growth in our marriage is when I can completely accept the fact that she is not gonna change and that the only th I have the courage to change me, my my myself. And that's when so sometimes when in the heat of battle, I have to say that and I'll I I'll literally say that prayer out loud, say, I will accept the things I cannot change, my wife, the courage to change like things I can me, and the wisdom to know the difference between those two.

Nole (41:16.56)
Amen, brother. Take responsibility for the one thing you can control yourself. I think that is a fantastic place to close the episode.

Kevin (41:27.138)
This has been the Fire You Carry podcast.

Kevin (41:38.966)
You're drinking on.

Nole (41:39.014)
Really quick. Yeah, exactly. I was drinking this during the episode and I realized I've got this in a cozy and you can't see what it is. It looks like I'm drinking a tall boy. obviously I don't drink alcohol. this is a ghost.

Kevin (41:46.861)
Hmm.

Kevin (41:50.552)
Ghosties, you're back on that ghost train? Bro

Nole (41:52.998)
Don't tell anyone. Well, I mean, I guess I'm telling everyone. I just want you to know that Ghost makes a few flavors that are delicious. This one is called Original. And it tastes like a cross between the original kind of Red Bull flavor and a white monster. It's kind of like a blend of both. And I I don't recommend you try it because it is delicious and you're gonna love it.

Kevin (42:10.605)
Mm.

Kevin (42:16.854)
You're better than men than me. We were drinking those ghost the orange sickles.

Nole (42:22.182)
Yeah, the cr orange cream sickle's really good. My my personal favorite is the sour watermelon warhead, which I think I've mentioned on the podcast before. Also by Ghost. And I did want to show off my cozy. This is a USA 250 from Tecovis. I went in there and bought a shirt. Have you ever been into a Tecovis store? Cowboy gear, yeah. All right. A little pro tip for you. If you're in an area where there is a Tecovis store, you need to go into there.

Kevin (42:29.219)
But

Kevin (42:33.742)
Nice dude. Two fifty.

That's the cowboy boot thing? No, I have not.

Nole (42:48.552)
Preferably with your lady. I'm assuming they're all like this because I've been to one in Austin, which is, you know, you're in Austin, you gotta go into the cowboy store. But there's also one near my house in I forget the name of the town. It doesn't matter. Victoria Gardens, which I think is Rancho Cucamonga, but it doesn't matter. You go in there and you're greeted. The whole place smells heavily of leather. Staff's really nice. They offer you a water or a beer. I don't partake in the beer, but

Kevin (43:11.371)
I love it.

Nole (43:16.304)
If you ask if you say, Yeah, I'd like water, they bring you a cool cold can of liquid death. And then you just peruse the items. I bought a shirt last time I was in there and I felt like I was I felt like I was royalty, dude. And there's like chairs and couches. They just encourage you to come in and hang out. It's just fun. And you may not be a cowboy, but there's stuff in there that you could buy. They have t-shirts and hats. And you know, maybe you do need some cowboy boots in your life. I personally don't own any, but

Kevin (43:22.542)
Mm.

Kevin (43:26.39)
That's that's classy cowboy stuff.

Kevin (43:35.52)
I like

Kevin (43:42.841)
Well, listen, I I felt like we talked about being a poser on and like listen, I like country music, I like Coulter Wall, Parker McCollum, I like it all. Chris Stapleton makes my s touch my soul, right? But when we I've gone to many of country concerts and when I wear there I wear a Fario Carey t shirt, my normal Adidas things and jeans, and some of the people that we go with all of a sudden have all this cowboy gear on. And I'm like

Nole (43:52.263)
Amen.

San Barber. Yep.

Hmm. Good.

Nole (44:07.878)
Yeah, the duds.

Kevin (44:09.983)
Bro, you're from Costa Mesa, bro. You've never been on a horse, dude. Like, calm down. That's me judging them. So I'm sorry. But I I so I do not own a pair of cowboy boots. Yeah, I feel like I have to like earn that.

Nole (44:23.728)
Yeah, I don't own cowboy boots either. I have a pair of boots. I wear them religiously when the weather is appropriate. They are Red Wing Iron Rangers and I love them. But I can't do cowboy boots mostly because I like I like the look of them. I think they're cool. But I'm not a cowboy and I don't do any cowboy stuff. So it would feel it would feel a little bit wrong to me. But anyway, that yeah, whatever. Spindrift.

Kevin (44:28.524)
Yeah. We we live in the mountains, it's appropriate.

Kevin (44:44.194)
I'm just gonna last thing. I'm I'm drinking these spindies, dude. Do you like the spindies?

Nole (44:50.856)
I is that the one with the fruit juice in it or is that the one that's just sparkling water? Yeah, the fruit juice ones. Yeah.

Kevin (44:54.178)
Got natural fruit juice. It's natural fruit juice. Spindrift, if you're listening, sponsors because I go to Costco often for the case of these, and guys are bringing in spinnies for overtimes now, which is fantastic. But I like them better than LaCroix by far. And so I'm like spindies, these are my favorites. All the flavors are great. Shout out to Spindrift.

Nole (45:17.65)
Dude, I have to say something. I know you have to go, but I I'm so glad you mentioned guys at work bringing something in. Two things really quick. One, there's a there's a recurring thing that's happening now because guys don't bring donuts in much anymore. But there's something that's happening where people are bringing a bag, a brown bag with a big golden on it, the arches. And inside this bag in the morning to say thank you for letting me come over for overtime is

Kevin (45:24.235)
Yeah.

Kevin (45:39.074)
MacDonald?

Nole (45:45.288)
Three to six, however many sausage egg McMuffins with cheese. Bro, I'm sorry. I don't believe in eating McDonald's and I try not to do it. It's been a long time since our family has actually gone there. but dude, those are delicious. And full disclosure, this morning I was really disciplined. I disassembled the sandwich. This is gonna sound so lame, but I took the bread off and threw it in the trash can.

Kevin (45:48.738)
Which are delicious.

Nole (46:13.768)
'Cause I'm on a zero carb thing right now, but I ate the eggs and the sausages and the cheese. They got all kinds of carbs in dude. Okay, that's not the point. Anyway, that's happening. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, this is too good to this too good to be true. I did, sort of. Not really. But I had two. Just no bread. So we've talked about the peanut butter spoon guy, peanut butter knife guy, right? Guess what visited my station yesterday? No.

Kevin (46:13.846)
That's a print. What do you got against

Hey yeah, please please tell me. I love that you had a McMuffin.

Kevin (46:32.61)
Yeah, of course.

Kevin (46:36.844)
Yes.

Kevin (46:40.942)
Peanut butter spoon guy.

Nole (46:43.528)
Peanut butter fork guy.

Kevin (46:45.443)
that's even more disgusting. You should be shot in the face immediately.

Nole (46:47.464)
What madness is this? Who takes a fork and sticks it into a jar of peanut butter just to lick it off and then leave it I should have taken a picture of it. It was perfect. I couldn't have staged it better.

Kevin (46:51.682)
Me.

Kevin (46:57.836)
I bet you that guy is also on the terrorist watch list. That's a terrible human.

Nole (47:01.106)
For sure he's not allowed to fly commercially or internationally. And he should have his driver's license revoked.

Kevin (47:04.332)
No. I'm just gonna admit to you right now that probably a couple times a month I hit that I hit that McDonald's and get a couple sausage egg McMuffins for two for six. And pro tip, it's a in pro tip if you just say, Can I get two sausage egg McMuffins with no cheese? You get fresh cheese, dude.

Nole (47:19.1)
That's actually not a bad deal.

Nole (47:23.976)
What do you do? Tell me the tip.

Nole (47:29.564)
Yeah. ooh, 'cause they gotta make They're not in the warming tray.

Kevin (47:32.878)
They're not the ones that have been sitting in that thing. They gotta make it separate. And I I rationalize it 'cause you look at the macro bake down, it does have a little bit higher fat content. But you know, sometimes it's a cold morning and I didn't bring anything to eat and I'm hungry, I'm I'm crushing a couple sausage eggs, dude.

Nole (47:51.846)
Yeah. I love McDonald's breakfast. I love it. And when I go well, I will say, when I do it, they're food. Yeah. If I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do the sausage egg McMuffin with cheese, my thing is, y you know, you get the meal I cause I want the hash brown and then I if I'm gonna do the hash brown, I always gotta do more than one 'cause those are my favorite parts. So I always order two. Anyway, that's enough.

Kevin (47:54.646)
Yeah. The rest of it's trash. No, I mean like McDonald's in general is trash, but those are the only things I eat that

Kevin (48:10.798)
Mm.

Kevin (48:15.67)
Kevin (48:19.353)
Well, time to get him all the time. This has been the five years. Thanks, buddy.

Nole (48:21.956)
Ha