266: Silence is Not Violence, But it Might be Evil

In this solo episode, Nole reflects on a recent experience at the Hume Lake First Responders Conference that challenged his perspective on small talk and silence. From "evangelizing" about In-N-Out and CrossFit to the weight of staying quiet when a brother is heading off a cliff, Nole explores the moral responsibility of speaking up. Using the biblical imagery of the Watchman on the wall and the wisdom of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, this episode dives into why our silence can sometimes be a form of consent to things that destroy the people we care about.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• The "Two-Minute" Rule: How Pastor Jim Stitzinger challenges us to bring our true identity into a conversation early.
• Identity & Evangelism: Why we find it so easy to talk about diets, hobbies, and gear, but stay silent on the things that actually matter.
• The Watchman on the Wall: Understanding Ezekiel 33 and the weight of seeing danger but failing to blow the trumpet.
• Truth in Love: How to offer a "faithful wound" to a friend without being combative or legalistic.
• The Seatbelt Analogy: Why keeping someone "comfortable" while they ruin their life isn't actually loving.
• The Supply Shed Reveal: A brief moment of transparency regarding the "YouTube vs. Reality" podcast setup.
• Book Recommendation: Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas (A must-read on standing against evil).
• Scripture References: Ezekiel 33:6, Ephesians 4:15, Proverbs 27:5-6.
  
  

Big thank you to My Epic and Facedown Records for the use of their song "Hail" in our podcast!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2RZThURTU&ab_channel=FacedownRecords

Get signed up for the next trip with Hold the Line!

https://www.fireupprogram.org/hold-the-line

The Fire You Carry on YouTube.

Sign up for a class at The Fire Up Program!
https://www.fireupprogram.com/programs

The Fire Up Progam video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__ErPW46Ec&t=12s&ab_channel=FireUpProgram

The Fire You Carry Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/thefireyoucarry/

Donate to The Fire Up Program.
https://www.fireupprogram.com/donate

The Fire Up Program Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/fireup_program/

Kevin's Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/kevinpwelsh/?hl=en

MyZone facility code for The Fire You Carry: CALIFUS001

Get $60 off a MZ-Switch Heart Rate Monitor!
https://buy.myzone.org/?lang=enUS&voucher=CALIFUS001-60

Transcript

Nole (00:24.962)
Welcome back to the Fire You Carry Podcast.

It's Sunday, the day before Monday when we released this podcast. And I've been thinking about changing the name of the podcast to something like on any given Sunday, even though I think there's a sports reference in there. I've heard that phrase. We are frequently now recording usually Sunday evening before, before Monday in order to get an episode out to you. And tonight is no different. Kevin was unable to make it had some family issues at home.

So I'm going to run a quick solo episode and I think it's going to be good. think you're going to enjoy it. This is something that I recently got started thinking about when I was up at Hume Lake with my wife for their second ever first responders conference. And I was up there with some really good friends. Of course, my wife being my best friend, but got to meet Dave Hoy up there who is a podcast listener.

from Canada. He well, we'll just leave it there. I don't want to give too much away about him, although we should be having him on the podcast in the near future. So I'll just leave that there. But we were up there at the invite of our friend, Pastor Jim Stitzinger, who was speaking. He's been on the podcast a couple of times and got to see just quite a few other friends, some program guys.

up there and it was a great weekend. One of the things that was said and it was actually said after a message that Pastor Jim gave, his messages are great. I got a lot out of those as well. But the thing I wanted to talk about today, because I believe I can keep it relatively compact and short.

Nole (02:19.755)
was actually said by one of the hosts at Hume, one of the staff guys, after a message. And the thing that he said, he was talking about evangelism, but hear me out, this, while it does include that, if you're a believer, it actually translates across the board, regardless of what you believe. But what he said was, I get in a conversation with people, am I talking to them?

about the really important stuff or am I talking to them about how much I love backpacking and in and out? And he said all too often, my default things that I talk about are backpacking and in and out. And I immediately thought of CrossFit and veganism when he said that. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not an evangelist for either of those things. I've never been an evangelist for veganism.

But there possibly has been a time in my life where I might have been considered an evangelist for paleo or keto or carnivore more recently, where that's what I would want to talk about when I'm in a conversation with another guy. And the CrossFit analogy was funny back in the day when CrossFit was huge and everyone was doing that for fitness.

because the question was, how do you know that someone does CrossFit? And the answer is, don't worry, they'll tell you. And of course, the same joke applies to vegans and it applies to people who are using peptides, anything that's trendy and...

happening, people will tell you about it, that becomes part of their identity. And the challenge that was being issued was simply that we should be analyzing the things that we're talking about on a regular basis and and determining whether or not those things are good and edifying. And then of course, if you're a believer in Christ, you believe the Bible.

Nole (04:24.919)
then do those things point back to him and back to that truth. But again, even if you're not, do the things that you choose to engage in conversation with, with the people that you meet in the supermarket or the people that you interact with at work or in your house, are those the things that we should be talking about? And there's a lot of different directions that I could go with this, but something happened at work. And so I wanted to

to tie it into that, a work example. And so in order to do that, I'm going to leave that part of it aside and I'm just going let you think about that. What is it that you talk about most often and is that something that you want to continue doing? You know, in this gentleman's example, his two things were in and out and backpacking. And in my example, it might be working out and

ice baths, who knows?

reflecting on that and asking myself the question, is that the best thing that I could be being an evangelist for, right? Going out and spreading the gospel of, right? To use biblical terms, the gospel of ice baths. Like, is that the thing that I should be spending my time on? Now, certainly if someone comes to you and asks you a question, hey, I'm coming into California. I'm from Canada. I've heard about this in and out place. Should I go eat there? Well, then yeah, you answer that question. You talk about how great in and out is.

and you encourage that person to indulge in some in and out and you tell them exactly how to order it and all that kind of good stuff. That's a different thing than when you're in small talk with someone or just meeting somebody, what comes up? What do you talk about? So reflect on that. And it was convicting for me because oftentimes the things that I talk about, while they're not necessarily bad or negative things, are they the best thing?

Nole (06:23.805)
And I guess to jump ahead or put a closure on that point before I switch to the inverse of this, something else that was said up there, this was actually part of Pastor Jim's message, I think on Saturday, but he talked about how he tries to find a way to introduce the fact that he's a follower of Jesus into a conversation with someone he's just met within the first two minutes. And the idea is not that

You just run around proclaiming to everybody, I believe in Jesus or do you have a moment to talk about Jesus? Because if you've been around those people, you know that that can be awkward. can be grating. can be honestly a negative way to approach that. Now I'm not saying there's never a time and a place for that, but I am going to definitively say that that's not my personality. Kevin always talks about how he's not built or designed to be the guy that stands on the corner with the sandwich board.

and proclaims the gospel. I'm also not that guy. So the way that he talks about doing this, Pastor Jim, is that if you are praying and in communion with God and in the word that, and then you ask God, Lord, as I meet people and have conversations today, give me an opportunity to speak about you and to talk about what you mean in my life. Things will come up in conversations. And if you're in the word, especially, and you've been praying and listening to God and doing that stuff,

things will come up, someone will say something and you'll go, you know what? I was just reading this morning in Matthew and it talked about this. And then there's your in, and you can talk about it. And it doesn't mean that we're called to evangelize to everybody that we meet because I don't believe that we are, but rather than do what I all too often do and not bring that up and not make it clear that I'm a follower of Christ,

look for those opportunities, but look for them from God. Look for them as a prompting from the Holy Spirit where you're asking for that and you're allowing him to give you that nudge, which you felt that goes, hey, you've got something to say here. And then following that. So the thing that kind of solidified that I wanted to do an episode on this was a conversation that happened.

Nole (08:47.179)
Semi-recently, I'm going to keep this vague to protect the individual who may or may not listen to this podcast. Not sure, but.

Nole (09:01.143)
So we're sitting at the table, we're having a conversation, it's the morning time, and the individual in question says something about a part of their life, about their lifestyle, that as a believer, I think is incredibly negative and harmful for this individual, the behavior that he's engaging in. Now, he doesn't feel that way. He's not a believer, so he's under a different standard, right? He didn't have the same standard as me, wasn't raised the same.

doesn't have the same beliefs, all that kind of good stuff. And so I don't just immediately come out and do what I would do if Kevin was sitting at the table and was saying the same thing. Right. If Kevin does that, I'm going to immediately go, what, what do you mean? What do you do? What are you talking about? You're doing that? No, like we don't do that. What's wrong? What's going on? And he would do the same to me. But because it's a non-believer in the context of the story, I just listened and I didn't comment.

and I didn't say anything and the conversation carried on with the other individuals and then it moved on to something else and I went on about my day. But as I was thinking about doing this podcast,

Nole (10:13.365)
I was reminded of a quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer who, if you don't know who that was ...

I'm going to put a link to a book that you need to read or listen to the audio book of in the show notes. But.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer said that silence in the face of evil is itself evil. God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak, not to act is to act. And there's an old Latin proverb that has been adapted into English and many people have kind of said it in different ways, but this is the oldest version of it I could find. And it simply says, he who is silent is thought to consent.

And so the idea is, is that when you're in a conversation and someone says something that you don't agree with, but you choose not to say anything, they're going to naturally assume, and the others around you are also going to naturally assume that you agree and that you consent.

So why is that important? Why does that matter? And how do you execute saying the thing in the world of being a man in the firehouse or at your job as a UPS driver or whatever it is? So I started looking for some examples from the Bible and I'm going to read a couple of these and then I'm going to actually I'm going to talk about each one of them as I read it.

Nole (11:46.606)
briefly. And then I have a point about taking these out of the out of the Bible. For those of you who maybe don't believe in that I am going to bring it around in Ezekiel 33 six. says but if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand. So

The principle here is that you have a watchman. He's on the wall. He's on a tower or a turret and he's watching, right? It's his turn to watch for the invading force. And if he's up there and he sees them coming and he doesn't do anything about it, the blood of those people that die is on his hands because he didn't sound the alarm. They're not warned. So where this would come into play, and I'm to use a really extreme example. This was not the thing that was set at the table. So just make that very clear. But if we're sitting at the table,

And one of the other guys at the table says, I'm really enjoying meth right now. have just, I've just been using all the meth that I get my hands on and I feel great. And it's really changed my life for the positive. If I don't say something and I let that man burn his life down and ruin his family and his career by using meth, then now I'm that watchman on the wall that heard that and went, no, that's not the answer. I know where that's going to lead.

But if I don't say anything, now I'm the watchman and now that blood is on my hands. So in a way, this is potentially saying that there's, I now have a responsibility to say something, to speak, and that's a much more extreme example than what we're talking about. However, then we have the concept of a moral failure or a sin is a sin. And God looks at them the same, whether you're going to murder somebody or scream at someone in traffic and flip them off.

Those are both sins and God doesn't distinguish one from the other. We here on earth do, but not going to go any deeper into that. You get the point. In Ephesians four verse, let's see, 15.

Nole (13:58.988)
It says, rather speaking the truth and love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ. That's, that's not the verse. no, I guess it is. It is. That is the verse. I was actually looking for a different one, but this one does say it in the beginning, speaking the truth and love. So then that shifts it a little bit, right?

I'm not gonna say to this individual who's now using meth, hypothetically.

What the hell is wrong with you? You're being an idiot, right? I'm going to do it in love. I'm going to love being in an encouraging, a more gentle way. I'm not going to put this person down. I'm not going to try to make them feel bad about who they are, the decisions they made, but I am going to try to help them. Being truthful, giving them the full picture and the full story, but not doing it in such a way as to hurt them or embarrass them or belittle them. So that's the...

That's the kind of the heart behind that. And then in Proverbs 27 verses five and six, and these are the proper verses. I did some research. Proverbs 27, five and six. Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Profuse are the kisses of an enemy. This one,

I have at times in my life known personally where you have a friend come to you and and tell you the thing that hurts you. But they're doing it because they are a friend and they would rather wound you than see you go down that road. And my dad, Jeff Lilly had an analogy, I guess has an analogy.

Nole (16:00.203)
when he was working with a homeless ministry up in Seattle, he talked about how so much of what we do for people who are homeless, drug addicted, mentally ill, is we see this person and his analogy was that they're going to be in a car crash and they're going to roll down the side of a cliff in their car. That's the trajectory that they're on.

And rather than stop the car from going off the edge of the cliff, we allow them to go off the edge of the cliff, but we put their seatbelt on. And so they end up at the bottom of this cliff and they're alive, but their femur is broken and they're all banged up and they've just completely ruined their life. They've crashed and rolled down a cliff. We could have stopped them from going off the cliff, but because we're trying to be gentle and not judgmental and you know, whatever.

good intentions we have in quotations, we've allowed them to still do the horrible thing and ruin their lives. Sure, they're not dead. And his example, the first time I ever heard him say this was he was talking about how the city of Seattle was doing these safe injection sites where people could go, homeless people could go and they could get clean needles and they could do their drugs there and there would be medical people on site. And so it was a safe place to use their drugs, which is why

a good percentage of them were on the streets is that addiction.

And his point was that allowing them to continue in that addiction isn't loving. And simply keeping them quote unquote safe while they do it is actually a very unloving thing to do. Same way with the example about the hypothetical meth guy at the table. If I decide that I'm gonna protect him, that I'm not gonna say anything because I don't want to hurt his feelings, and I'm gonna cover for him at work, and I'm gonna do what I can to make sure that I don't make him uncomfortable, but I allow him to continue in that lifestyle.

Nole (18:00.065)
That's not loving. And all too often, this incident also in particular that happened that was not meth, but was something else, another lifestyle choice, I heard that and I stayed quiet. didn't...

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to make it awkward. didn't want to his feelings and.

I don't think that's right. And I've been challenged that another reason why this came up, I feel like when God is teaching me things, comes at me from a bunch of different angles. But I was recently having a conversation with my good friend David and my brother Edward about this and about approaching people, saying something when something comes up that you don't agree with. And it's kind of changed my perspective on how I handle myself really at work because I don't come across these type of conversations. Well, actually that's not true.

I do come across these types of things at the program. So there have been a few instances where things have come up at the program lifestyle choices that guys are making. And I have a very clear system of belief, maybe even some personal knowledge about it. Alcohol is a good, easy kind of low hanging fruit example for me on that. I don't believe that consuming alcohol is a sin if you can do it in moderation, but I do believe that

stopping alcohol consumption is just good across the board for everybody. I don't think that everybody has to do it. I think there are plenty of people who can consume alcohol in moderation and it's not a problem for them and it's no big deal and that's all well and good. But I also know that it's a net positive to quit regardless of who you are for health reasons for all kinds of reasons. And so that's not really the issue that I'm talking about when I think about this but just to protect folks. I won't say exactly what the things are that have come up there but

Nole (19:51.928)
those type of lifestyle choices. I have a system of moral beliefs and they come from the word of God. And then there again is the question, how do I, how do I translate that for the non-believer, right? Because hypothetical meth guy, he's under, he's not, he's not under the same standard as me. I can't say, well, you know, this is wrong because

this chapter, this verse says this, he doesn't believe in that. So then what do I do? And I think that the answer, and I haven't tested this, although I've heard people smarter than me say this, which is why I'm saying it. But I think that the answer is to engage in that conversation and to say, I really believe actually that that's incredibly detrimental for you. And here's why. And then take them to scripture or

talk about it, say the Bible says this, you don't necessarily have to go, let me get my Bible, let me open up my Bible app. But take them to that principle and say, this is what God says about this behavior that you're engaging in and where it's going to lead. Maybe give them an example of something you've seen in your own life or that you've experienced and give them that moment because there's something, and this is where I'm going to bring it back for those of you who aren't believers who are hearing me read all these verses and maybe have already tuned out. But if you're still here,

There's something about the Bible, and this is not the reason why the Bible is the best-selling book in the world since forever, right? But there's something about the truths in the Bible where if you apply the principles that are in the Bible, they will benefit you and your life. And it's so much better and so much deeper if you have a belief in God and you're following Jesus. Like, that's really the point.

But there's principles in there and truths in there that are just true because they're true. And that's really undisputed. And so much of what you hear in the podcast space, the YouTube space, whatever space where there's people that are trying to do self-help or trying to do shows like this where you're talking about being better. So much of that, actually all of that comes from the truth that came out of the word of God first. So I would encourage you.

Nole (22:15.469)
to read it and believe it, follow. But I would also encourage you if that makes you uncomfortable to not just dismiss it because the examples that I'm giving come from the scripture or come from believers. It's something that works because it's true. the example of Proverbs 27, five and six talking about an open rebuke and the wounds of a friend.

regardless of what you believe or where you're at, you know that that's true. You know that you would rather have a friend tell you the hard thing that helps you in the long run. You'd rather that friend love you enough to help you and to step in and say, man, you're, really making a mistake here. This isn't right. You need to fix this versus somebody that's just like, yeah, but you're doing really good, bro. Yeah. Keep it up. Right. The kisses of the enemy that are just, I can't remember the term it used, but

that type of reinforcement that just leads you further and further down that road. It's me at the table high-fiving the meth guy. be like, yeah, dude, meth is awesome. Like, I don't believe that, but I'm going to tell you that because either A, I don't want to your feelings or B, I'm just outright your enemy. And I want you to continue down that road because I want to see you hurt, right? That's not what we want. So that's one of those truths. That's one of those things that you hear that regardless of what you believe, you just know this is real. This is true. And final thought.

There obviously has to be a balance here because I don't believe that we should step into every conversation that we hear, where there's something that we disagree with, whether it be moral, political, the way you're raising your kids, the way you're eating, the way you're doing things. There's so many arenas where I hear people say things and I really agree with that. I don't need to be combative and just jump on every single thing.

But I do need to find those places where it's important enough that I shouldn't let that opportunity slip by. And I do need to say something so that in that moment, I'm not being silent and being assumed by the other people, the other listeners, by the speaker that I consent with whatever is being stated. So meth guy is the example where I have to speak up. I can't not say anything. The guy that's talking about

Nole (24:44.225)
choosing to be a vegan over choosing to be a carnivore. Do I need to jump on that? Not really. Do I have a strong view on it? Yeah, I do. Do I have any way to prove that one is better than the other? Nah, not really. I have the people that I've listened to talk about it. I've had the things that I read and I can't go out and do studies and prove any of it. So is that a place that I should jump on it? No, probably not. Does it mean that I can't engage in that conversation? No, but finding the balance where I'm not just a

an argumentative guy who's just always like, I don't believe in that. That's wrong. Here's what's true. But finding those places where as a brother, especially in the context of work, in the context of the brotherhood, when you hear something that you know is negative, is going to negatively affect that person, having the guts, having the intestinal fortitude to speak up and say, hey, tell me a little bit more about why you're doing that.

What are you getting out of it? What's the purpose? Because I've seen this or I know this or I've experienced this. And here's why I think that that's detrimental for you finding those places. So.

Nole (25:59.224)
Two things that I'm thinking about right now that if you want to think about them with me, you can. Is what am I choosing to talk about most often, especially in small talk conversations at work? Are those the best things? Are those the things that really actually matter to me or are those just the things that are the easiest low hanging fruit stuff to talk about? Time is short and I don't know that I want to have spent time talking about in and out.

to use that guy's example or CrossFit or Carnivore or whatever. So what are those things and why am I doing that and what should I be talking about instead? And then when you hear something that's negative that you don't agree with that you know is going to hurt that person, you feel that little prompting like you should say something here. Don't consent to this with your silence just because you don't want to this person's feelings. Listening for those things and instead of staying comfortable and staying safe like I did recently,

finding a way to get into that conversation and ask questions, make statements, maybe not even necessarily to change that person's heart and mind, right? Because it's not really for us to do, but maybe to be used as a tool to help facilitate that. So those are the two things that I'm thinking about. Those are the two things that I'm going be working on. I do encourage you to do the same. For those of you that have made it to this point, if you're watching this on YouTube, which for those of you in the audio world, yes, this is on YouTube for our...

eight viewers. How many is that? Eight. I did not put up my flag today.

and I did it because...

Nole (27:40.578)
The flag is, it's a lie. Now that sounds really bad. I love the American flag. I love this country. I love what it stands for. That's not what I'm talking about, but this is the reality of my background. Most of the time when I record, I'm either down in my basement at home, which looks worse than this, or I'm here in the supply shed, which looks like this. And I just thought, you know what? I'm trying to be transparent. I'm trying to be,

open and humble and vulnerable and all the things. So let me just do an episode without the flag up so that so that the one or two people that watch this on YouTube can actually see where this is coming from the supply shed. So I hope you enjoyed it. The background, not really. I hope you enjoyed the content. We appreciate you guys. Thank you for listening and

This has been the Fire You Carry podcast.

Nole (28:54.135)
Whoa, solo episodes are tough. really need Kevin to bounce ideas off of and to get his feedback on it makes for just a much better episode. know as podcast listeners, you know what I'm talking about. We've got two things coming up rapidly. We have the Hold the Line fly fishing trip led by our good buddy, John Engel and his wife, Emily. That is going to be April 10th, 11th and 12th. I will be there with my wife, Heather, along with some other program guys. It's going to be awesome.

We're going to be camping by the river, Kern River. We're going to be learning how to fly fish. We're going to be spending time in the great outdoors and just decompressing and unpacking just the stuff of life. So if you would like to be a part of that, I will put a link in the show notes. You can also go to fireupprogram.org. There is a tab on the top that says, the line. You click on that. It's going to get you in touch with John and that's how you can sign up. It is a free program. It is covered by the Fire Up program because we're now one of the same umbrella.

So if you want to be a part of that, go do that soon because we're making plans for that and how many campsites we need and all that kind of good stuff, food, all that kind of good stuff. So go over, do that, come hang out with my wife and I and some other great dudes and their wives. Although you don't have to bring your wife, you can come solo to this. There are a couple of guys that are also coming solo. So, oh, and there's also a dad bringing his kids who are young adults. So it's much more open than the fire program, but for more information,

Like I said, go to thefireprogram.org, click on the hold the line and get in touch with John. He'll get you all squared away. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week.