254: Chosen for the Crucible: Jon Engle on Loss, Faith, and Fly Fishing

In this special pre-Christmas episode, Kevin sits down with Captain Jon Engle of the Colton Fire Department. Jon shares a vulnerable and powerful testimony of enduring a "season of shadows"—losing his grandfather, a fellow engineer, a childhood friend, and his brother in a short span, all while navigating a life-threatening medical crisis with his newborn son.

The heart of the episode is the announcement that Jon’s nonprofit, Hold the Line Fishing, has officially merged with The Fire Up Program. Together, they are expanding their reach to offer recreational therapy and "tactical pauses" for first responders and their spouses.

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Transcript

Nole (00:13.646)
You are listening to the fire you carry podcast in today's episode. Kevin sits down with our good friend and fellow program guy, John Engel. There's some really exciting news in this episode and I'm not going to spoil it here, but suffice it to say that all of us at the fire program, myself included are very excited about what Kevin and John will share this episode. So I'll just leave it at that. I would like to say that.

As every episode that I miss, I was sad to miss this one. I really love John. He's one of my favorite people. He's just an awesome, genuine guy. And you're going to hear that born out in this episode. There's a lot of great takeaways in here. So buckle up. Thank you for listening. Enjoy.


Kevin (01:17.902)
Hey, welcome back to the fire you carry podcast. Today we have our esteemed guest, Jon Engle, captain Johnny. Welcome to the show brother again.

Yeah, thanks dude. Good to see your face.

Yeah, buddy. So we're missing Noel. Noel is busy and the Christmas season is upon us. I'm sure. you guys, mean, it seems chaotic. I've been trying to slow down the family and like have them remember what the reason for the season is. But every year it's the same thing. It's just like there's family, there's traveling, there's shopping, there's hosting and it's hard to slow down, at least for us.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially like, I'm sure you guys are the same. throw sports in the mix with sports teams, parties, and, you know, school performances and all the stuff that comes along with, you know, just kids in general on top of work and work parties and wrapping up, you know, just getting ready to have the time off. Yeah. It's, it's something.

Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty well, you know, this is the first, my daughter, my oldest is in seventh grade and they have like their middle school is definitely more like high school college prep. So they have finals, right? And this is like finals week in all of her classes. And then I wasn't realizing, but she was being real spicy and talking back to mom and real spicy with us. And then I realized, like I looked at, she doesn't have a calendar or a plate.

Kevin (02:47.95)
You know, but she knows that, I have a final Monday. I have a final Tuesday. I have a final Wednesday. know? And then finally, I realized, like, this is finals week, and this is her version of a structure for her. This is really intense, like an intense week. Like, we gave her a little grace and said, you know, we obviously set a boundary to say, like, this is not how you talk to mom or me. And this is some strategies to manage your stress. But, like, I was also gave a little bit of grace and leeway to say,

She's overwhelmed and stressed. She's just a kid, doesn't know how to handle it.

Yeah, no, it's, you know, our kids are little, they're nine and six. So I can't say that we're dealing with the same yet as far as the older problems, but yeah, everybody feels it, dude. And if they don't feel it directly, know, kids are pretty smart. They pick up on our elevated stress levels and you can, you can feed into it for sure. So that's a kudos to you, man, for

given those tips and tricks.

I don't know. They are mirrors though, right? Like you said, they feed off of our energy. If we're stressed and spicy in the house or maybe bickering at each other, they do too. And if we're putting on music and I'm dancing with my wife, they start dancing. It's really funny. They seem like dogs. You have got even dogs and we got dogs, but I think dogs are the same way. They pick up on your vibe.

Jon (04:13.866)
Absolutely, yeah, that's a true statement.

What's the big present for a 69-year-old boy? What's out there right now? What's the thing?

Dude, our boys, they're outside all the time. Like we don't have tablets or gaming systems or whatever, you know. yeah, Legos are huge. know, bike accessories, charging up their bikes, you know.

Thank you for you.

Kevin (04:44.514)
get those new cranks. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, dog. Let's see. What else did they ask for? Yeah, some Star Wars Lego stuff, which is rad. One of them said like an electric bike, but we'll see about that. I don't know.

But a kid version, you know, we went back and forth on like bike versus scooter. I think we settled on some bike that does barely move. You know, he's still got to work at it and pedal a little bit. But then the older one, you know, he plays baseball. So a lot of his stuff was centered around that. Yeah. Baseball cards and new little like card sleeves for the, for the binder. You know, if you remember doing that back in the great.

Yeah, you gotta get to sleep. gotta put them all in the, yeah.

keep them safe, you know, so yeah, just, know, little, it's still little kid stuff, you know, I'm sure that'll, that'll change here shortly, but, it's still fun. You know, Elf on the shelf doing that game and, you know, goes forward to see them somewhere new with a note, you know, like, so yeah, it's a, it's all, all fun around here, man. House is all churched up. The wife does an awesome job of bringing the spirit in. So, you know, kind of one those unsung hero things for sure. Cause

Jon (05:58.54)
Well, you probably like me. I couldn't do that. Dude, this place would look like a bachelor pad all the time if it was.

no, yeah, I'd have one Rocky poster up and that's about it. But no, like, yeah, she, she came up to me, this is years we've been together for 20 years. And she's like, what do you think about this thing for Christmas? What do you think about this decoration? What do you think about this? And finally, I have to say, you know what love, I don't think about these things. It's like, if you think it's great, then it's great, you know? And like, I do, I guess I do notice the house looks different at Christmas time. It looks nice and I'm glad you do it, but.

Yeah, dude.

Kevin (06:31.02)
I don't think you don't have to include me in these decisions.

No, go for it. You have full authority to make the house look how you want.

Yeah, my job is just to pull those 18 boxes down during the Christmas season. get them out of the high place of the garage and bring them out. That's You gotta know it's not just me. No, no, it's a common struggle. what we will not do is have a separate storage unit for all of our things. Like we have to pare this thing down. We have a separate box for the fall.

What?

Jon (07:02.061)
No way.

Kevin (07:05.888)
And then we have separate boxes for Christmas. And I think there's even an Easter one springtime. Yeah. Yeah. You got to have the boxes. You mentioned your wife, I think, Emily, and you mentioned outside. And so I think it's a good segue to say, like, hey, I don't you know, this is what to me, this is one of my favorite things about when we started a podcast and we started the nonprofit, the FIRA program is I think you were the one that reached out to Noel.

Yeah buddy.

Kevin (07:34.818)
and said, hey, I got this thing. You guys need any help with it? And what has happened is because we had this thing and you had a thing, which we'll talk about, we became buddies. I don't know about you, but when somebody tries to like, I get a call out of the blue or some random number or somebody emails, I'm like, what's the angle? What are they trying to sell me? Am I getting smoked from a guy from like, I won the Somali lottery or something? like, you know what mean? I'm always like, but in your

Your kids wants to give you a million bucks.

Yeah, and this is what's so cool about office. We don't talk about it also. It's like the general fire service in general, the brotherhood, is you reached out and we initially had helped us with stickers and banners and told us about what you're doing with the fly fishing program. And then we were just talking back and forth and created friendships and met your wife, met your boys. And now this is the coolest thing in the world. Maybe you can talk about.

Hold the line fishing and now that we are joined together as brothers and I went to it and I'll tell him my experience But tell him like what you do. I mean you're a true outdoorsman

Yeah, in a loose sense, I guess I just enjoy being out and whether that's hunting, fishing, camping, getting lost somewhere in the woods. There's just a good mental reset, right? I truly believe we we were meant to be away and outside. You know, think about it. It's really just since

Jon (09:09.358)
kind of industrialization that we've spent a majority of our time cooped up by four walls or a cubicle or something pecking away at a computer. So for millennia, men and women have been outside working in the sun and being in the outdoors and enjoying it. So I think it's in all of us, you know, it just takes that little spark to go find it. But yeah, I do, I do, we do, you know, we did something we do and cherish as a family and it's great bonding.

You can teach your kids all sorts of things, you know, hey, you can touch that you can't touch that here's how to start a fire here's how to You know buck a log into fire or whatever. It might be that you're doing it's valuable learning lessons and maybe some that we're losing as a society, so it's kind of cool to to get out and and share those things that I've learned, know, whether it's you know, my dad or grandpa taught me or I OOP something and and I had to learn

and come up with a creative solution. Yeah, it's just, it's good to be really in God's creation. Like to be honest, it makes you feel very small, but also very peaceful. So yeah, I do enjoy it. But as far as the fly fishing stuff goes, about the same time you guys started Fire Up, we had had a pretty tumultuous, probably 18 months.

And we, my wife and I would go on these little fly fishing adventures, you know, we'd go up to the Kern river in the Sierras or the Owens river or Idaho, Montana, wherever we just pick spots and we'd go try to harass some fish, you know, with our fly rods and excuse me.

Do you have to sell her on this idea or was she going out?

Jon (10:59.973)
She's all in. She's excited. Yeah, she's up for all of my wild ideas. But I mean, I had grown up doing it with my grandpa and got away from it, you know, during high school and college years, because most of my time was taken up with with baseball, both high school and college and a little bit after that to doing some stuff. But, you know, got back into it. And, you know, at that point, she was 78.

eight years ago. Yeah, right around there. You know, we had had this pretty rough time. I was like, yeah, you know, this is maybe feel good to stand in the in the water. So we went, we hired a guy to put the on the Kern from the Kern River fly shop. His name is Ryan Buehler, who has become a fast friend. He's helped us with the nonprofit. Every class won't accept money. He knows the value of it and has seen the value.

and helping and giving back much like we all have with, you know, about the fire program being cadre for that. And then with the fly fishing stuff for me, and you've got to experience that. But, you know, we're coming back and I go, you know, my wife and I were driving back, hey, I'm feeling like, awesome, you know, like we just spent eight hours, just the two of us and we had fished a little before, you know, for a couple days and.

But this is how it makes me feel. I awesome. Like I don't think about anything except watching and again, you can talk to your experience about watching this little thing float past you and you know, then it goes down and you set the fish and there's like this primal like yell inside, right? When you're hunting and you are able to successfully fulfill your tag or when you catch that fish, right? Because back in the day, if you didn't, you didn't eat, you know? So there's something inside of us.

Like I said, it's written in our DNA, it's primal where that happens and you're like, there's this rush of excitement, like watching you catch that fish that we kind of figured out together and watching this, lit up, dude, you let out a hoop, hollering and just stoked. I think that's in everybody. What's cool about fishing is you can do it, you can start at such a young age. It's kind of hard to tote around a pack and a rifle at six, but flinging a fly rod or.

Jon (13:24.462)
or even going for bass, you know, with a spinning rod or whatever is it's not that hard. But anyway, we're driving back and hey, you know, this is how it makes me feel. And I just feel good. You know, just overall good, right? If I can summarize it. And she goes, yeah, me too. I go, well, shoot, what if, what if we start this thing? Or like, we just try it, right? We try it. I'll put this thing out in the world and see if people want to come try it that are having a rough time with with work or

You what?

Jon (13:52.974)
You know how they have PTS symptoms. Maybe they are diagnosed with PTSD. Or they're just having a rough time with whatever she goes. Yeah, that's awesome. I immediately get back on the phone with this dude Ryan who I've known now for eight hours. Hey dude, here's my idea. What do you think dude? I'm in right? Does it even like batting? goes 150 % dude. He goes I'll do you one better. I'll even get the Southern Sierra Fly Fishing Club to back us. We can use the shop we can use.

I'm sure the shop owner will be super stoked to help out. We can use waiters and boots from here if the guys don't have them, guys or girls. He goes, this'll be great. Cool. Well, me being me, you know, as an idea, little think tank, I didn't anticipate it jumping off so fast. And now I gotta start doing something that I'm not so great at and that's planning this thing out for people.

Right? So we just kept it real basic. was, you we got some camping spots right there in town. So, which is awesome. Cause as you know, you've been, you it's right, right close to the river. So you get to hear the water all night while you're sleeping, like camp food, you know, burgers and, um, you know, we just kept it mellow. And, uh, like the first three or four, I would work overtime to pay for all the stuff, the food, the campsites, um, whatever come out of pocket.

And yeah, after that first one, we were like, well, we've got something here. You know, this is, this is pretty cool. Everybody's going, whoa, man, whatever I was dealing with, I didn't, I didn't even think about it for eight hours, 10 hours, whatever, how long we're out. And that's when it kind of the light bulb really lit up fully Edison fully kicked in. I was like, all right, you know, this is pretty cool. So we kept rolling and rolling and rolling and we never talked. So I was never able to make it to the

to the program because we always planned our stuff on the same weekends, you know? I made it. I made it. We're good. Been through it. I'm a program guy officially. It's wonderful. But yeah, that's that was kind of the genesis of it. And it really came from, you know, a rough a rough patch for for my family, for my department and recognizing that I needed another tool.

Kevin (15:48.504)
Yeah, yeah.

Amen.

Jon (16:14.438)
You know, I happen to find it really by mistake, to getting another tool to cope with not only the stressors of life, but the stressors of work and the stuff that we see, you know, I'm sure you've heard that stat, you know, everyday people might be involved in three or four traumatic events in their life. Military touched more than that, you know, 15 to 20 will send and anybody listening, don't quote me on that. It's been a while since I've looked at those stats, but

The one that always stuck with me was first responders, whether you're on an ambulance, officer, firefighter, whatever, you know, that's four to 600 calls you might go to that are like truly traumatic and can have a pretty devastating effect on you. So that's, it's pretty profound when you think about it. And I'm sure much like me, when you started in the job, you know, I'm oh eight for me. Yeah. So seven, almost 17 years now, um, it was, Hey,

you know what you signed up for, file that away somewhere in your brain, we gotta get back on the rig and run the next call. So we've come a super long way in the aspects of mental health and learning about it, taking cues from the military and what they're doing. Are we perfect? No. But in my time in, we've made this huge leap. It's talked about, there's protocols, there's peer support, we got saunas, we got cold plunges at stations.

working out has become a great thing now, right? We know that's just as good as any antidepressant. So there's a lot of good leaps forward. Now it's just, I think, normalizing it, right? Trying to take some of that bravado and ego out of it. Now I got this, I got this. And making it okay to be vulnerable and say, hey, dude, I'm not okay, you know?

So.

Jon (18:10.254)
We'll get there, dude. I mean, slowly, right? 1 % better every day is still 1 % better and we're getting there.

We are and it's of people like you, you know, I mean that have the ability to do something go out on land Spend your own money like you said to get it started but but everyone's got different tools and everybody needs different tools for different things and I've always been on this is just a running theory of mine But we're exposed to the worst of all humanity and I think most of the guys that go into this have a certain personality type that run towards the danger instead of away from it and Then it's not always the specific trauma

Right? But it's whether how's home life? Is the marriage okay? Is there any substance issues? Is there financial pressures, sleep deprivation, overall physical wellness? Like it's all those things combined that, then maybe a call could be the, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back, but it's, it's all those things. And like even yesterday, you know, we had a TC trapped. was, we had a lot of, we saw some traumatic things. We saw three in a day, which is somebody's lifetime of what we saw. But I do know that like,

because of what we do and I'm surrounded by people like you, I have the tools. I have the tools to know what to do and to stay on a path. I think that's what's interesting is coming, I got hired a little older, I in my early 30s, and I noticed I had picked up some of those tools early on and a lot of firemen, for generally speaking, get hired young and they're young men and they got a decent paycheck and benefits and we just add, add, add, add, add.

more cars, more houses, more trucks, more boats, more. And we add on top of adding call after call after call and traumatic. And we never really take anything out. The fishing to me was like almost taking everything a tactical pause. So like I grew up in L.A. I didn't grow up fishing and I, you know, I admire guys that go hunting, fish and do that stuff. It just wasn't my experience. I didn't have what you had with your grandpa and your dad. But when we sat there, I haven't gone fishing before and I've done.

Kevin (20:12.226)
deep sea fishing adventures, but this was different. There was a part, I think I've traveled most of California, but I hadn't been to Kern and, and again, some more of a pass through for me going through Baker's shield or something, but that it's, absolutely gorgeous. And it felt like we were the only ones on this amazing river and you, you get geared up and you feel a little like, you know, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but the guys that like you and the guys that were involved in that shop were just overwhelmingly cool. It wasn't like,

those guys that try to make you look like an idiot in the gun shop. You know what mean? They were like, hey, this is what we do. This is how you do it. But I got it immediately. Like, I get it. Like, I get why this was so beneficial, because I don't have my cell phone on me. It's just going back to nature. I'm literally standing in water. The effect of water actually has been proven to have an effect of not like just, right? And then it's a meditative thing where you throw the fly up, you let it cruise down the current, and then you float it up.

and you go down the current. that was almost like EMDR, right? It was like if you've done any type of thing like that. And then yes, you become a five-year-old boy when you catch that rainbow trout. And there's something deep, deep within your brain and your soul that just is like, woo, I got a fish. And you become a five-year-old boy. And there's joy there, right? And then even if I didn't catch anything, the next day, I totally got it. And there was a peace that came about us.

It was almost like a meditation, getting back into nature, talk about grounding. You got your feet in water the entire time. Like there's so much to it that it's just fishing and then being a part of God's beauty and nature and being grateful. And I mean all that stuff, but it does take somebody. It took somebody like you to come into life to say, I have this thing. Why don't you come? And then what was really cool is that we do a lot of cool stuff and even the fire up program is only for men. But my wife got to tag along.

And we got set in a 10, and we used it as a date weekend, kind of reconnect. Her experience was different than mine, but she absolutely loved it. She couldn't care less about fishing, but she just loved sitting on the rock, talking to your wife, just literally just being present in God's nature and God's beauty. And she was happy as a clam. She couldn't care less if she caught one fish or 100. And so I got it. But I really appreciated and was grateful for people like you and Em to like,

Kevin (22:36.846)
put something like that together because it is an excuse to do that. probably wouldn't because like you said, sports, Christmas, school, all the things, I probably wouldn't schedule just a weekend to go fishing with me and my wife. But that was a thing to say, hey, this is a purpose. I'm gonna try to get well. I wanna try to be around good people and I wanna try something different. And then I'm so glad we did.

Yeah, it's not. We recognize like there's so many, so many avenues, know, excuse me, sorry. Right. And much like fire up or the fly fishing stuff, it may not be the end all be all right. We recognize we're not doing any intensive therapy, but shortly after we started started doing it, they they kind of came out with

what do they call it? Recreational therapy, right? It became kind of a recognized thing. So that could be, you know, shooting a bow, riding a horse, kayak and kite surfing, you know, whatever it might be. They became recognized as a modality to help with some of these things. And like I said, add some of these, these tools in the toolbox that maybe, maybe you didn't know about, but you did. And, Hey, that actually does help.

Equal.

Jon (24:00.078)
helped my brain a little bit. So it works subjectively. can say it definitely helped me and my wife and we have helped other people. You know, we've had, we've had a few, a few folks say that had it not been for that week, their plan was to, was to take their life the next, you know, which kind of just fuels that fire even more to go, all right, no matter what we know this.

this is working and that's not everybody's case, but it just, you know, one more is one less, right? If one more person sticks around with us, that's one less person that chose suicide or self-harm. And I don't know what other thing we can really do that's much bigger than that than, you know, helping our fellow people.

Yeah, it's amazing. you know, I kind of want to dig. I don't know if you're comfortable about it, but I have been blessed to hear a little bit of your story and background. But I think it's more than it takes. It takes a catalyst. And at least in my opinion, take, you know, we had my little brother had committed suicide. We had seven suicides in our fire department. We had a murder and a suicide in our fire department. And I was just like, enough. want to, I want to, just felt called to do something.

for the program and we're not gonna cure all our help, but if we can help one, that was my intention, is to get some good guys around. I don't know if you'd be candid about talking about it, but I thought your story was really impactful to me because it was similar.

Yeah, no sweat, man. I'm happy to share so like most of us, know, my life hasn't been, your life hasn't been some steady upward climb to this pinnacle, right? Like it's been just chock full of hard lessons, deep valleys, some dark places at times. It's just life, right? So I don't want people to think that I'm some

Jon (26:05.292)
you know, Adonis up here. It's, it's, just a normal dude that's lived, lived life. Best I know how through God's grace, I've made it this far. And yeah, that'll start with that. But it really kicked off. We lost my grandpa. You know, he was really the cornerstone of our family. know, every family gathering at the holidays was always at their house, you know, big meals and they're from the Midwest. So you never left.

without a full belly, but just really taught me a lot about life and faith, working hard, know, doing hard things, getting up early and losing him was tough, right? That rocked our family pretty good. Not that long after I lost two pretty close friends, both chose suicide. One was childhood friend and then the other was another engineer at our department.

I actually, he was my relief, you know, and then I never saw him again.

Ugh, brutal.

So he came in, relieved me, know, gave my pass down and then come back to work and we got the notification that morning, you know, and it was jarring to say the least, but instantly we were snapped back to reality because we got a call. As we're on the phone on this conference call learning about this scenario, you know, the tones go off and now it's like,

Jon (27:36.398)
We didn't even have a chance to digest it. They hadn't even thought through the process, right? So, I mean, I talked with the guys I was working with and we remember exactly where we were, what we were doing. We're all sitting there listening to this call. So it's like, whoa, you know? And then you come back, it's like, well, now what? And the department did a great job with the debrief and we honored him well. But those two suicides, they hit like a freight train.

because it's something I had never personally dealt with before, but all the emotions came in. I was angry, confused. And at the time I didn't recognize it. Looking back, I can't, it broke me in a way that I didn't know. I didn't understand it. You think about all those things, you're angry at them for choosing it. You're sad for them, for their family, for their kids, sad for the department, because it's like a ripple. I think they say a...

a single suicide can affect upwards of 1300 people and you just don't know. know, it's just, it's like dropping that pebble in the water. Those ripples keep expanding and going out and it's very much the same. But, uh, so we had those two. Um, and then a months later, uh, my brother, my middle brother, Garrett, uh, him and his wife were driving home from a date night and a young kid, 18, getting ready to go to the military.

punched it through a red light about 70 and and hit my brother's door as they were coming through the intersection on their green light and Instantly dude instantly, you know, I had a chance to talk with the coroner a little bit. I mean He was Almost 28 27 so, you know had a lot of life left to live and a lot left to give but

at the time.

Kevin (29:32.686)
I

Yeah, yeah, I just, was, it's funny, I was taking a fire, like arson investigation class and hey, can you tell me what, this was, you know, oh yeah, let me look up the case. So like I said, there was a silver lining is that he didn't feel anything, you know, it was, was instant. But, but that one with everything we had up until that point really, you know, that one shattered us, shattered, right? And it

it just tore a hole in me because he was like, yeah, one of my best friends. did near everything together, you know, always hanging out, always doing whatever we could, you know. So that one was rough. Well, then we find out Ames pregnant again, right, with our second boy. We named him Garrett after my brother. That was pretty well decided. Like as soon as we found out we were having a little boy. But at 14 weeks, we found out he had a birth defect.

And, you know, we're going for the ultrasound and it looked like there's this little flower sitting on top of his belly. They very calmly explained to us that those were his intestines. They hadn't pulled back inside, attached themselves at the mesentery because there's a little hole next to his belly button or at the time his umbilical cord. So, okay. So now we've got the remainder of the pregnancy, right? Like 14 weeks isn't that far in the first trimester or whatever, or not even not even to ruminate on it and think about, well,

What does this look like? Right. So we went to some classes and learned about it. But, when he was born, know, they go, expect to be in here a month, but maybe a year, maybe longer. just depends on how long it takes everything to start running downstream. But he was out in two weeks. So we're like, yes. Right. Like kids are savage. She tore it up, get him home and getting settled. Well, he vomiting up.

Kevin (31:28.066)
Yeah.

Jon (31:34.69)
bile again, which we knew meant things weren't going downstream like they ought to.

So we're like, man, yeah, we should probably take him back, right? This isn't right. So they immediately go, I'll stop. Readmit him back to the NICU. They didn't really tell us. They told us what it was, right? It's called necrotizing and terepilitis. So those of us in the medical field know necrotizing is never a good word.

No, not a good one.

but they didn't let on just how dangerous it was. Ended up that in a way he was really fighting for his life. He's being eaten alive from the inside out from his intestines outward, right? So now we're back in, right? Which is already, having already been there, sucks because we were getting settled. No mom should ever have to leave a hospital without her child. Come to find out.

No. And you're other boy, right?

Jon (32:31.052)
Yeah, yeah. And so this is right around Christmas time, dude. Like he was born on the 11th. Yeah, he's born on the 11th. I took time off, but we're trying to keep a two year old in the spirit of Christmas around the same time while we're trying to deal with all this. So it was just, it was a ton of stuff, you know? But seeing your kid hooked up to machines and spinal taps and this study and that study, you know, this little teeny five pound thing, cause he was born early just.

I don't know, man. It's awful. The NICU, while it's a miraculous place at times, is awful. It's just terrible.

I find it awful.

Yeah, it's horrible. You know, and then through studying and talking, we find out that like 95 % of moms, especially maybe it's even higher now, I don't know, but an incredible percentage of parents, moms specifically have some form of PTSD or PTSD leaving the NICU. Yeah, so really focused on that aspect of it. We got asked to be on an advisory board for Loma Linda to help.

100%. I can totally see that.

Jon (33:41.282)
get them some help, some social services, some psychiatrists and people that they could talk to. And she's really involved in that still making it better. They have weekly dinners for the parents where they bring them in. They can talk about what they're going through. So again, another silver lining out of a crap situation. But yeah, so this necrotizing enterocolitis, we're just like, it's an infection. They'll give them some antibiotics. We'll come to find out it actually.

Had we not caught it, if we would have gone another two, four hours, like he probably would have died. So he was really fighting the whole time he's in there. And that just, top of everything else, has really messed with my soul, right?

Yeah, you're playing. you know, I've heard some people describe this thing as like we have everybody has a different size cup. But, you know, when you go from your grandpa to your engineer to a close buddy that you grew up with and then to Garrett, your brother, and then you have your son that's born, it's in the NICU and is about to die. Your cup is now overflowing, right? And for most men, we try to hold it together.

a fireman, you're trying to be like, yeah, but we all know that it worked. I we're just, we are on, I can imagine that you guys were just on an edge.

Yeah, and it doesn't help that forever in our world of work, you're taught to just file it away, right? So I didn't handle any of it how I should, right? I buried it, right? And like you said, the cup filling up analogy, not only was the cup full, but every call that we go on, I tell guys like, all these calls that we go on that are traumatic, it's like,

Jon (35:26.008)
punching a little pinhole or taking a chunk out depending on how gnarly it is, right? So my eight ounce cup probably was like a four ounce because we do, we leave a piece of ourselves on each call from that cup and from our body and our soul and we take on that weight. So now, you know, I'm throwing some duct tape over stuff by going back to work. Like my brother's death, my way of dealing with it.

air quotes, was to plan the funeral, right, or the celebration life because

But you're the guy. Yeah, you're the guy. I'm the stable one. Yeah, yeah, right.

We're the fixers, right? Like I didn't Yeah, my sister in law is in the hospital, right? And she's dealing with with some pretty serious stuff and injuries. I don't want my folks to have to deal with it. My wife, absolutely not. So I just went to work. did what we do. I went to work, right? Yeah. Been distance myself from it, went to work and ultimately just buried it. Did I didn't cry hardly at all. If at all. I, I didn't. I didn't pray.

I got it.

Jon (36:33.658)
kind of shut down, you know, didn't really talk about it. just, I just did things to keep me busy, to keep my mind off of it. I planned the funeral, got through that, buried myself in work, right? Joined all the committees, just trying to stay, trying to stay away from, from feeling the pain because it was easier. Right. And, and like I said, we fix things. That's what, that's what people do in our, in our world. And we control things the best we can. fix them.

and we take on and carry weight for everyone else, telling ourselves that it's strength. But what it truly is is avoidance, right? It's avoidance of dealing with something that's hard, even though we're really good at actually doing hard things as part of our daily lives at work.

And I think it's subconscious too, right? Like you talked about signing up for work and then signing up for all the cadres or committees or anything like that. And at least for our department, it's endless what you can sign up for.

yeah.

And I do think that that is avoidance, right? Some guys, maybe they're avoiding home, maybe they're avoiding trauma, maybe they're avoiding whatever. But I don't even know for me. I don't even think I was cognizant or conscious of the fact that I was struggling. And yet, at work, it's this duality of Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. You literally wear a costume. You put it on in front. I'm doing auto-ex, I'm doing force entry, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And everything's great. And then at home, the wife's like, hey, something ain't right.

Jon (38:03.326)
Yeah, well, and, you know, we talked about it through counseling later, but she, my wife was like, man, I didn't, I didn't even know I felt like a fool because I'm over here like a blubbering mess, you know, trying to go with stuff and I was just stoic, man. You know, through all that, she's still, she was, and I can share this and she has no problem with it, her story, but she tells it.

Right.

Jon (38:29.934)
She's giving me permission. know, she was struggling with her own form of PTS from Garrett. My brother dying and now her son having all these struggles, right? And instead of helping her and being there and being an anchor, I shut down, right? Yeah, I didn't have the compassion. I didn't understand. I didn't understand her or what she was going through, but I didn't ask, right? I couldn't see her pain, honestly, because I hadn't even faced my own.

Sure.

Kevin (38:45.23)
You just checked out,

Jon (39:00.686)
our marriage suffered and not in the traditional right like abuse, both physical or substance, any infidelity or those conventional ideas of suffering and struggle in a marriage. But there did there was no intimacy, no connection. And ultimately, was me being selfish because I didn't want to deal with my stuff, you know, I was cold. And I still chose to run away from it.

You know, I turned to some things, a substance, but other things, telling myself, this is how I'm going to cope, you know, thinking it's harmless, justifying it. I'm just stressed. You know, I got a lot going on, whatever. I needed an escape, but ultimately, dude, it was searching. You know, I was searching for something in the wrong places and for something that I felt was missing. through all of it, what truly was missing was my faith.

because I lost it, man. was angry. I was mad, right? The times I did talk to God were mostly, know, cuss out sessions, guess, questioning him and his will, right? Like we had people come up, you know, I'm so sorry, at Garrett's funeral, I'm so sorry. You know, he's in a better place, which we all know to be true, right? you know, God has a plan. I'm like, uh-uh, time out, dude.

Time out. This was not God's plan. I don't care what you believe, right? If we take it back to beginning of man, none of this was ever God's plan. Right? So don't tell me that my brother having this accident is any part of God's plan.

Every

Kevin (40:44.43)
I don't want to hear that.

Jon (40:51.658)
Ultimately, you know, as we do, I thought I could fix it. Because that's what we do. We're fixers, dude. We want to fix it. Right. But how could I do do that and fix my faith and my marriage and all that when I couldn't even fix my own stuff? Right. But I honestly, I didn't want to admit that I was hurt and broken. That I couldn't fix even myself, right.

So what I needed was trust and...

what I needed to do was stop fighting the one, the creator, right? Who could actually heal all that stuff.

So in the middle of all that mess, Emily started going and talking to the counseling team, international folks. It's a great benefit that we have that I preach to the mountains now.

Yeah, I know some of those people involved. Yeah, they're great peeps. Yeah.

Jon (41:48.194)
Yeah, it's a great thing. Like, so through our department, we all get 10 sessions free, right? So she started going on her own. And, you know, she kind of, she asked, you know, you come with me, can we do some couple stuff? And you can imagine how that went.

Yeah, I'll go for you, babe. Yeah, I'll go now

No, not even that. I think, you know, to be perfectly candid and you can bleed this out, but was, you know, fuck that. I don't know that guy girl. Yeah. Why would I tell anybody that doesn't know who I am or who we are anything about, right? This is, that's my mindset.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not talking to

Kevin (42:26.07)
And they have no idea what we do. I'm not going to spend an hour trying to explain to them why I saw two deaths yesterday.

Yeah, right. And I'm sorry to swear, but man, I do at times like a sailor. So it is what it is. But that was that was my mindset at the time, right? It is absolutely not. I honestly didn't trust anybody else but myself to fix these things. And deep down, I knew I couldn't. But that's that's what it was. Right. And the worst part was, is we hadn't chosen any of the stuff that had happened to us. Right. Like I wasn't out.

boozing or getting involved in drugs and alcohol. this was all outside stressors and influences that had brought this like calamity and chaos into our lives. But eventually, dude, I threw my hands up, like, I just don't want to, we've got enough going on. I don't want to fight you about this, right? Let's just get this over with. Let's just go, boom, do one. I'll say, see, I told you this crap don't work. Like, let's beat it, right? Get out of here, nerd. I don't want to talk to you anymore. And really it was just to avoid.

And she wasn't even nagging, but just to avoid a fight. And that one choice, right in that moment changed everything. It changed everything. I know you go to account, know, countless, let's do it now, right, regularly. And, and you know, the importance of it and how good it can be. But something when I acquiesce just that's, that's, that was the catalyst to get us going and did it changed everything.

That's amazing. I mean, God bless our women. They have to deal with us. They have to deal with us. I don't know if you've ever seen that lady. She's a female comic. I think it's Rachel Feinstein online. She's married to a

Jon (44:00.664)
He's everything.

Jon (44:16.43)
This is hilarious, man.

Yeah, she just she has this funny bit about how emotionally empty firemen are you know what mean? Because she's like we they deal with the worst things in the world and they hold it all in she's like I think my water broke and I was in pain and I was delivering our first kid and he's like you good and he's like why do you? Right, but it but it is there is a truth to that like we do bottle things in and I think it is It's necessary right if I was completely emotionally

attached to every single 911 call that we go to, I would be a complete and total mess, right? We have to come in as the eye of the storm, solve somebody's massive emergency, and then do that over and over and over again every day. And so I don't, I think that we do put a protective layer, which is appropriate that I don't, try to distance myself emotionally from it just solve the issue as we can. But it's very hard to turn that hat around and not do that at home. That does not work at home with your wife. It doesn't.

work with your own issues. doesn't work when you have four immediate deaths in your family and your kid is near death. Like it doesn't work. You can't be emotionally unattached. And so there's that duality that I think that is very hard. And I think we're all trying to figure out how to best balance that. I mean, that's one of the things we try to tackle at the fire up is how to reintegrate in normal life, you know, because that works at, you can be an all star as a fire captain and be the eye of the storm.

in a really challenging stressful environment, but sometimes that is the detriment to you at home.

Jon (45:52.258)
Yeah, and, and, dude, you know, and you know, to you showed your, your testimony and it takes a while, right? Like it didn't, things didn't magically like, hey, all better. Right? Like didn't happen overnight, but, but some I learned, you know, is, is even a half a percent better is, is still better. Right. We're moving forward. I think you got it.

You got to want it. you? I don't know if that was the for me. was like all of a sudden, hey, we went to a few counseling sessions and I realized that, OK, I got some stuff to work on. But I wanted it. I wanted it. And it's been my experience over years and years of doing therapy, not only with me and my wife proactively, but myself, is that not all of them are great. Right. Just like not all cheeseburgers are great. And just to say, if I go and get one bad cheeseburger, I'm never going to have cheeseburgers again.

which a lot of first responders do that, but I like Jesus. I want to go to therapy. I want to get well. And so I'll go, Hey, I've tried multiple different people and now I have a rolling group of like three of them. One is more of a like sack up, kick you in the nuts, stop being a B, you know what I mean? Word. And then that's sometimes what I need. And then sometimes I need this other lady who is very just listening and more of a spiritual sense. And then we have a biblical counselor that I go to that.

Sometimes I feel like something ruminating in my head. And so I use them differently for different times, whatever I'm going through.

Yeah, we tried a couple. I mean, ultimately it was, it was good. You know, I started to let go of that control I thought I had, you know, kind of gave that up, leaned pretty hard into my faith again. And really the biggest one was like listening better, which is a constant struggle, dude. Like

Jon (47:42.828)
you know, if I'm doing something, there's something going on in the background. And she's trying to tell me, hey, I still have problems with that sometimes. And I'll, I'll admit it. I'll admit it. Right. So I've taken the, you know, writing stuff down and I've been doing it for forever. Right. Even in college, dude, I, everybody had their laptops out. I'd write by hand because there was something about the act of actually physically writing it instead of typing it to help me remember better. So I've gotten back, you know, as a

Don't we?

Jon (48:12.79)
last few months into, I think Noel even talked about it, keeping like a notepad, right? So I keep like a little Field Notes thing in my back pocket and that's how I get through the day if I got a big list or she's asked me to do stuff.

I keep one in my bed too, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you wake up in the middle of night. It's like musicians talk about that. They wake up with a thought. They write it down for a song. There's something to it, right? The act of writing is it's methodical. It's calculated. It makes your brain remember, I think. yeah, I mean, what we ultimately realize, you know, is we're never going to be perfect, but we can seek progress in all these areas every single day. And you may not get progress in every single

aspect of what you're working on, but you gotta keep pushing forward, right? I still struggle, I stumble, I sin, lean heavy into prayer, and the prayers are much nicer now from my end things. And really it's just more of a conversation now, you know? Not so much asking. I still ask for wisdom and guidance at times, but it's just, here's what's going on kind of a thing, you know?

even though we know he knows.

Jon (49:27.916)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's something about just talking it out, right? Like that's a big part of peer support, you know, you're talking with these guys and leading them through something and a lot of it's just letting them talk, you know, asking some, some questions to get them talking and they, they self resolve more often than not. They, they, they come into it knowing like maybe not all the time, right? But oftentimes they know what the course of action is, but they got to, they got to, they got to speak it out. Right. Yes.

And the biggest thing too was grace, dude. I preach it all the time at work and I give the guys some, give old B-Shift some slack, right? We don't know what their day was like or whatever. We're real quick to judge at the station about that stuff. it's like that-

You never know. mean, Yeah. You literally never know. I think we all as human beings have our own personal struggles and afflictions, right? And you never know. I never know what's going on in your life. And if I came to work, unless we were super close and you're my skipper and you're probably going to hold it all in, you're not going to say you just had the four closest people die next to you and your son, you know, we're just going to go on the calls, right? And so we're quick to just.

bang on people or joke or whatever. And there's, there's times that it's still so super appropriate. But I think if you all, one of my favorite things is when we all sit around and we're fishing or post-fishing or post fire up program is you realize that you are not alone. Like some of these struggles that you have had, I have had some of the struggles. Noel's had two kids in the NICU, right? Like we, we. Right. And then in like, not, not I'm saying like, Hey, once you realize, and I think

He's lost his kids for crying out loud.

Kevin (51:13.39)
we as first responders definitely put that shield or that facade up and it's appropriate at work. But when we talk, you know, around the table, we're like, ah, we all got the, we're all grinding. We all got stuff going on. We all have things and that's probably why we're firemen because it's not perfect. Right. And like we do in the unstable environment and what's most unstable is my home. Right. And so I think that's really important, but I, I just, my, my, my hat is off to you and I'm so glad that

you know, we met in that time and that we developed this friendship and now we're doing all this stuff. You're part of the fire up program because that story rings like it's powerful to me and to see because what I see is you have put in the work with Emily on yourselves, on your faith, on your family, on your children. like, and then, but because of these horrific things that happened to you and your family, like you said, you've been able to

do stuff for other people, right? And you said there's two guys right there that were suicidal and who are no longer because they went fishing with you. it's hard to wrap my brain around this kind of stuff to say like the tragedy was purposeful and it doesn't rationalize it. But I do think that's for me, some of the worst things that have happened to me, I think are sometimes purposeful down the line when I can look with a 10,000 foot perspective.

and say, this is why I was able to help this person. Because of that, I went through something similar.

Yeah. You know, as part of my, my perspective talk up at the program, but I have a hard time with the whole, you know, we're called to something versus chosen and, know, you and I have talked offline about it at length, but you and I feel like we were chosen for this. were chosen to have these hard things happen to us for some reason. Right. I think anybody in the first responder world.

Jon (53:16.898)
You weren't called to it. It's not a calling it. I truly feel that we were chosen to do it for some reason, right? We don't know what that reason is. We might find it. I think I found it, which is awesome. And that's to do the peer support stuff and help help others through stuff. And it took a pretty serious trial, right? You've had your stuff. So you're able to help coach people through. You were chosen to go through that.

hard time to maybe affect lives and you have right with the fire up program. You know, a calling is an invitation, right? We can you get that you get that invitation to that kid's birthday party. You don't really want to go to nah, sorry, man. We got something going right like like you can choose not to go but being chosen is is different, right? It's specific and intentional. It it's not an accident, right? It's it's a it's a

being chosen, I feel by God, at that point in your life to be in that hard spot, to then overcome it, move forward and make somebody else better through that trial and tribulation, through that crucible, right? We were chosen to do hard things for some reason and we excel at them at work. Not all the time at home, and that's okay. But as long as we're progressing and learning how to

to progress, that's, it's paramount. And then it turns into, you know, the fly fishing thing and the program and this podcast. And who knows how many people you guys have touched through this? I don't know. Lots, thousands, beats me, you know, but that's, we were chosen to do it. And I think that's the point.

It's one of those things. I love...

Kevin (55:09.782)
you're talking about progress, not perfection, right? That is a motto of mine because I used to accost like a sailor and sin daily, but if I look back, I am a different person than was 10 years ago, and I could see progress, right? And I try to do that today, stay on a path and try to live a life that's different than what I used to be when I was not a believer, right? But that thought of chosen versus calling, I really, really like what you say there about being chosen because

believe as a Christian that, you know, he says in the Bible, every one of your hairs are numbered. Every one of your days are in like, he did put us here for a reason and everything seems purposeful only looking back. it doesn't, it doesn't feel that way when you're in the midst of the storm. I have no perspective in that time, but when I can look back, go, that's why I was here. That's why we went through that. That's why we crawled through a muddle of,

two mile long tunnel of feces, right? To get out to Zewa Teneiwa on the other side. I get it now. And I think that's where I struggle is like, you're in the middle of the storm. I forget sometimes that this is also purposeful.

Yeah, it's hard to see outside of your bubble at that time, right? And that's just human nature, right? We're pretty selfish by nature. It's right, self-preservation, whatever I can do to get to the next day or the next thing. But you're right, when you can kind of get that overarching view, you know, at that hindsight being 20-20, you're like, ah, yeah, that totally makes sense. And look what's come of it, right?

You know, all the guys that we work with up there on the mountain have something, right? And you can't compare them, right? We shouldn't. Your story is your story. And we see that a lot of times with peer support stuff is guys let things go for so long and fester because they think in their brain like, am I, you know, I didn't lose my son.

Kevin (57:05.323)
No.

Jon (57:20.81)
It wasn't as bad as what Noel went through. He lost two babies, right? Like my stuff's not as bad as that or whatever, right? Like we play that game where we downplay it, right? But science has shown us trauma is trauma, right? You could lose your dog. You could have to put your dog down. That's traumatic. Or you could go see the body wadded up by the semi truck on the freeway that got hit at 65 because they were trying to cross.

Right. Your, your body chemically in your brain processes, two scenarios, the exact same trauma is trauma. And, and we have to, we have to help guys understand that, right? Like that. It doesn't matter. We can't, we can't compare and contrast. We, we just have to seek out that help. You get after it, you know, and get well, get better.

Yeah, that's a great trauma is trauma. It doesn't matter whether it's from childhood or on the job or substance issues or deaths in the family. And what's been helpful in some of the proactive couples counseling, not because we're at divorce doorstep or anything like that, but we go proactively to try to continue to be a strong couple. And obviously we've been married for 20 years, but.

I had to learn because I absolutely failed at saying like, Hey, I just saw two gunshot wounds in a stabbing last night and you're complaining about the dishwasher being broken. This is not a big deal. Figure it out. Like move on. I got to go to work tomorrow. That's not right. Right. And like that is her structure fire. That is her full arrest. That is her GSW. My wife being a hallmaker, it's not traumatic for a sense, but I downplay that so much.

because my thing is more important. No, we all have our different cups and our different fill, and I can tell that I have to be cognizant and patient and listen to her and not try to just immediately solve the problem like we do at work and then be so cold and callous to like not care about what she's feeling. And so there's always this delicate balance that I feel at most of the time, but we're learning. And I think that's one of the positive aspects of doing counseling proactively, not only personally, but with the

Kevin (59:34.926)
couples is that I can get a new perspective and we take a tactical pause just to have a conversation about those little irritants that drive people apart.

Yeah. Well, you're talking about the, being their, their major thing for the day. Think about all the stuff that they handle that we don't, we don't, we never hear about because we're so used to having strong and independent women in our lives that just handle business. Right. And then

Yeah, the one time they say, hey, this is wrong. We need to fix this. And you've, you lose your mind on them. Like this is not a deal. What are we doing? You know, it's, it's, it's just good to kind of step back from yourself for a minute and go, all right. And I struggle with that too. Like, you know, Hey, can this happen? This happened? so okay. You know, but if you just take a second, go, okay. Well, she had been gone for two, three, four days. She's handled.

everything with the boys, right? And I still have, I'm still not great at this, dude. I will be the first one to admit it, you know, and hey, can you help me with this or this is broken? You know, it's maybe in your brain not important. But they just handled every, every fire for four days, right at home, they need a break and, and help with this one thing. It's like, yeah, no worries. I got it right.

But again, I am not great at it.

Kevin (01:01:07.38)
No, I still I have to go to counseling to get beaten over the head so many times for me to then understand that this is important. Shut your mouth and help her out. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's, then you feel foolish because you're like, why did I act that way? Or why did I, why did I react in such a way? You know, it's like, gosh, dang it. Hey, I'm sorry. You're right. Like this is, this was completely inappropriate. I'm sorry. You know, it's it, but, but then you get that, you know, sometimes I don't know about you, but you'll get that like guilt or shame where you're like, why do I keep doing this? You know, or why is this one roadblock still here?

Or if they call you out on something, you know, you're like, the defense goes up. Oh yeah, but you, you did this, you know, and it's like, no, man, like if, if, you know, one thing we talk about at the, at the program all the time is accountability and, and having accountability for things. And we start these group chats to hold each other accountable for our stuff that we want to work on. But then when it gets pointed back at you, you're like, yeah, it hurts, right? It's not fun, but, but it truly is.

the way that we, that we progress and get better, right? Like we see it at work all the time. Like, especially the newer dudes, they, don't like accountability, right? But it does, but holding them to that standard and, and having that accountability is huge. And I tell my guys, you know, Hey, if I'm holding my weight, you have every right to come in this office and, and, and hold me accountable because we all have blind spots. And if I don't, I'm not going to know it. So I need you to tell me that I got it.

No, no.

Jon (01:02:46.678)
You know, so help me out so I can get better too. And they're like, that's that's different. know,

There's authenticity there, there's humility there.

And I mean it. Yeah, I totally mean it because I don't want to be stuck in some rut, you know, with this blind spot. I need to know about it. And, and, you know, sometimes it's easier to hear from them than my own wife, because I don't, I don't want to let her down. I love her. She's my partner, you know, like going through life together. So to know that I've been hurting her in that way, you know, sometimes that's, that's even harder, harder to bear sometimes, man.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. you know, I just think it's easy sometimes to, I think, to go through counseling and see, or even through, if you go through a faith based path, how wrong and sinful and terrible, you know what I mean? And it does build you, I mean, beat you down a little bit, but I, I, I'm also the fact that you talk about progress, right? We're just going to work. I don't have to solve everything.

that I've done wrong today. I maybe just want to work on one little thing. Maybe just not snapping at her the minute she says, hey, what do you think about buying a new couch? And I'm like, no, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Like maybe just not say that, right? Just hold it in. But I do think like, you know, if you're on a path and you're seeking, you're doing the right thing. You're being chosen for a reason and like maybe stop thinking about it. Ask for direction and his will for you and

Jon (01:04:02.338)
Take a break.

Kevin (01:04:16.054)
See what your path is, because it's going to be different than John's, it's going to be different than mine. But I do think you have to find the path, a path of to be resilient. You have to have to find out what works for you. And this is what's so fun about being surrounded by just such stellar dudes that are better than me, because for Tiibo, that might be Jiu-Jitsu. For you, it's going to be fly fishing. For me, it might be working out with a buddy or all those things, right? And like, I think a combination of what's going to work for you.

there's some critical foundational things that seem to work for all of us is the putting your faith first, your wife's second, your kid's third. Like that seems foundational. And those are commonalities, but I really like having to find like a passion in something that really you gravitate towards. And then, and then, and then going that land, right? And so I just love that it's fishing for you and for your wife and getting in nature. And I, and I, I want to do more of it. And I, I encourage any of our guys to go and.

Maybe this is a segue. I'm just rambling here, but this is the coolest thing we had met. We have formed a friendship. We've done things together as a nonprofits. And then we realized, why don't we just do this together? And it's the coolest thing. So we merged like we're firemen running nonprofits, but we merged our nonprofits just like literally finished that right now.

Yeah.

Jon (01:05:33.89)
Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I don't even know why we started talking about it, but it just made sense, right? Like, you know, what if we could be this one stop shop for first responders? Maybe they don't want to jump in cold water with us up there or, you know, carry a sandbag on a hat. Maybe that's not their cup of tea, but they go, man, that fishing thing sounds pretty cool. Let's give that a go, you know, and the more we

kind of talk through it. We're like, dude, this just makes sense. Both from the time aspect, because keeping books and filing taxes is hard to... We have a shared goal and mission of helping people outside of the job we already do that helps people. So let's go for it. And then it turns out it wasn't as bad as we thought to do.

No big deal.

You've got the right people in your corner works out. and it did. And now we're, we're proactively taking those steps to hopefully offering even more through, you know, the fire, the fire program banner, which is, it's pretty, pretty profound, dude. To my knowledge, you know, there's, there's nothing like what either of us were doing and now what we're doing together in the entire country. And maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't found it yet.

I haven't seen much either. And there's other things. mean, there's a lot of like Seal Fits, Kuroko camps. There's a lot of stuff for veterans out there. There's are equine therapies and there's good people doing good things, but I'm a little biased. I don't think I've seen what we do in our weekend retreat and what you do in yours. And what's so cool is then we're just telling you guys about this right now is that we are merging and I have been we are merged and the whole the line fishing is going to just be offered as a class that you can go to.

Kevin (01:07:29.486)
up with John and his wife Emily who runs this program. And this is so cool because there are guys that are retirees and my heart is now, I feel a calling or chosen to help some of these retirees that have physical ailments that might not be able to come up and do what we do at the Fire Up program. But to me, I think that's a no brainer to have them grab their wife. And as they have this challenging reintegration of my husband's, he was always gone and now he's always here.

And he really doesn't have that costume anymore and doesn't have a really purpose like I would point them immediately to you and and said let's go fishing, know, or it's not nearly as physical but it's just as healing as anything that we do and So yeah, we're gonna let you guys know we were gonna probably put on a huge email probably post on social medias When you can register for the next one, but I don't know if you have not to put you on the spot any dates coming up for

No, no, a team now, dude. got to run it by.

All right, so we're going to figure that out. We don't have any dates to announce, but we will do that on this podcast soon. As soon as we figure out our 2026 plan. And I really encourage you what is different. The FIRA program is currently for men only. And it started with just first responders. And now we have maybe, I don't know, 30, 40 % of our class of civilian guys. Like, hey, I'm bringing a brother or nephew or somebody. And even guys that just listen to this podcast say, I'm in IT and he flew out from Colorado and he got a

I mean, an amazing experience there. So the cool thing is that with Hold the Line and our now we have a fishing, a fly fishing program is that you can bring your wife. And I think that was a really cool connective thing for us to go back into nature and do something together. And it sparked conversations between my wife and I and stories that came up between my wife and I, because we had the time to do it.

Kevin (01:09:21.067)
And that was really special because that doesn't happen sometimes at the home. It doesn't happen even in counseling, but we had a real connection and it's because of what you and your wife had put together. And sometimes we need just an excuse to go do something because I'm probably not going to do it on my own. If I'm honest, I'm not going to take my wife and go drive up to current and do it. need, I need a catalyst and somebody that knows more about this than me to guide us. Right. And you're literally great guides and,

And so I really encourage you guys to look forward to that and we will, we will announce that when you guys are doing it. And then even our cadre is even talking about trying to get up there.

Yeah, do it all for us. Yeah. Yeah. experience it.

So, man, I'm just pumped, John. I think the world of you and your wife and seeing what you've got and hearing what you have gone through and knowing that you've come to it, you've had a lot of progress since then and to see what you have done for other people is just mind blowing. It's really encouraging. And I'm just really excited that, like, hey, we get to partner with somebody on your caliber in that.

we can offer these things to other people because I think it's going to be really special and I'm really looking forward to all the great things we get to do together.

Jon (01:10:35.404)
Yeah, yeah, me too, man. The feeling is mutual. You know, I often told people coming up that I get as much from them, I think, as they take away from the weekend being being guests, you know, and that same sentiment is true with you guys. I mean, I've heard your stories. I don't know how many times now, but there's always it's like rewatching Dumb and Dumber, dude. I always catch something right where I'm like, right.

Absolutely.

Like you guys, you guys might phrase something different or I, you know, I was jotting a note down. I didn't hear that, that part of what you guys are talking about that I've heard before many times, but it's just you guys, you guys make me better. So again, that feeling is, mutual man. And, and then hearing the stories of, of, you know, from these, these attendees, it's like, Oh man, like, you know, you just grab these little nuggets. So

So yeah, dude, the feeling's totally mutual. You often feel far inferior when I'm up on the hill with you guys, but a little bit of imposter syndrome, but.

Nonsense.

Kevin (01:11:43.374)
What is that? We have to smash that because you know like all of us as a cadre have all kind of shared those similar feelings and I think it's ridiculous. I think the more you think about what you said that you've been chosen to do this, I think we got to get out of that self-consciousness and to say like because I listen to your story and I've seen the light bulbs change and I've seen guys lives change because of it and then people said that of Noel's story and of my story and whatever we're doing.

But yet we still have that doubt. still have that, oh, who am I? I just think I got to stop thinking and stop being so, you know what I mean? And just like, let's just do it and have a heart to serve. And if it helps one person, great. But if not, I know it's helping me. It's helping me stay sober. It's helping me stay on a path. It's helping me. Right? So we're going to continue to try.

Yeah, I think it's just that reframing, right? Like if we're truly there just to all empower each other and make each other better. I think some of that, that doubt and that imposter syndrome will start to fade in the background. And then we just make each other better. Yeah. Infinitely make those coming up better. And just impact each other in ways that we might not even know, you know, until you're having that one-on-one conversation, but

But I think you're right, man. I don't know what it is for me. I haven't quite put my finger on it.

Maybe it is just wanting to be better. And it's like, need to be like that. And that's why you feel that inferiority or that imposter syndrome. But yeah, we got to get rid of that. I'm with you. I think as long as we just focus on that progress and helping whoever we can, however we can.

Jon (01:13:36.258)
That won't even be a thought anymore, you know?

Amen brother Well so much good stuff ahead. I don't even think we told him that you're a captain with Colton Fire Department and We had we had done another episode and we can probably put a link in our show notes No, it's our producers not here today. We missed you buddy But yeah, we'll link to that if you want to hear more about John and then we will also Keep all of you guys updated when we put out our offerings to go fly fishing up with John and Emily under the banner of the fire up program

super excited about that and hopefully we'll see you guys there.

Yeah, buddy. Thanks for having me on.

You guys are the best and Merry Christmas to you guys all.

Jon (01:14:19.81)
Yeah, Merry Christmas. Enjoy.

This has been the Fire You Carry Podcast.

Kevin (01:14:35.208)
If you listen to this episode, when it came out, it was a few days before Christmas. So if that's you, Merry Christmas. If you're one of the people that's catching up or that's gone back in time and is just listening to these as they come up, well, Merry Christmas anyway, even if it's July, that's where we're at at this moment in time. And we're excited about it. This has been a busy season for sure.

you

Kevin (01:15:05.43)
I believe everyone that I talk to says the same thing. And as you'll hear or have heard now at this point, I suppose Kevin and John are no different. So we hope wherever you are, that even though the season is busy, you're finding time to enjoy it, recognize what it stands for, enjoy that time with your friends and family. And maybe just maybe have a cup of eggnog non-alcoholic, of course.

If you are wondering, and I know that there are two of you that are, I am still holding to the long cold December challenge. I have been in the ice every day.

Kevin (01:15:48.576)
of this month so far. a few more, few more days to go, but I'm holding fast. I know that you guys are too, the two of you that are waiting to hear if I'm still doing it. So carry on. Month is almost out. Christmas day is probably going to be the hardest one, but that also means it's going to be the best and most important one. Don't skip it. Thank you guys for listening. We'll see you next week.